Evidence of meeting #52 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joe Buckle  Director General, Forensic Science and Identification Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Anne-Elizabeth Charland  Officer in Charge, Management Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
David Bird  Senior Legal Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
J. Bowen  Acting Director, Biology Project, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

10:40 a.m.

Director General, Forensic Science and Identification Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

A/Commr Joe Buckle

I'll ask Mr. Bird, because it's a legal question.

10:40 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

David Bird

It was really a legal issue, not a technical problem. The destruction would just take place entirely, without their being analyzed. The package they received would be destroyed without analysis, and that would be the end of those particular kits.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Does that include any records—I'm talking about paper records—both at the lab and at the police services that sent them in?

10:40 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

David Bird

It would only deal with the records kept by the RCMP and the National DNA Data Bank.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Does this legislation do anything to require the police force that took the sample, or the people who took the sample, to destroy their records?

10:40 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

David Bird

No. The samples are sent entirely to the RCMP, so the bodily substance would be entirely within the control of the RCMP. The legislation requires that the entire sample be sent to the commissioner, and it would therefore be destroyed. So all they would have is a record of an order that they've executed, but that would also be following the criminal record information they may have. All they would keep is, potentially, the order directing them to collect the sample, and there would be no DNA information attached to that except the fact that an order had been issued. But it's not required for destruction.

The legislation really authorizes the commissioner to destroy, not direct other bodies to deal with the records. Why they would keep these records would be subject to their own record-keeping requirements.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Is there any requirement that the decision—having been, in effect, reversed—goes into the record back in the police services that took the sample originally?

10:45 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

David Bird

No, there's no requirement that the RCMP communicate what it does to the initial police force.

The policy, as I understand it--and perhaps other members of the RCMP can speak to it--is to communicate, immediately upon receipt of a DNA data bank order that, on its face, is defective, with the police force to clarify whether or not there might have been a technical issue that it could clarify, that there was a typo, that there was a problem that the court could correct directly without having to go through this process.

So the communication has been ongoing to try to rectify this immediately with the police force that submitted it, and these 1,725 are all cases where nothing further could be done to deal with it as a technical matter by the local police force.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I have one final question.

In terms of the sharing of this data with foreign governments and foreign jurisdictions, do we have any records of how many requests we get of that on an annual basis, or if we have a backlog, how many we have, to make some sense of what we're faced with here?

10:45 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

David Bird

International sharing, as I understand it, is quite small at the moment; it's a one-off. There are two aspects. Individual police forces in Canada can ask for the commissioner to send off specific crime scene stains that it has, and it's submitted to the data bank as a profile. Those profiles can be shared internationally at the request of a police force. For the foreign countries that want to send their profiles in for sharing, it is usually again a single event.

In the future it may become a much broader and more common process, but at the moment the international system to allow that to happen on a large scale that would conform with our legislation does not exist. It may be able to be implemented soon, but at the moment I think it's relatively rare. I don't have specific statistics on how many requests for comparison have been done from law enforcement agencies abroad sending their profiles in for our searching, or how many we've sent out.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Do we have any authority over the labs that the OPP and the Sûreté du Québec maintain in terms of requests from foreign jurisdictions?

10:45 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

David Bird

It's possible the law enforcement agencies outside the RCMP may have direct communications, as they may on any file, to ask for assistance internationally through the connections they have. There is no limit by the DNA data bank over what law enforcement agencies can do with information it has lawfully obtained.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

And there is no tracking by any federal authority.

10:45 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

David Bird

Not that I'm aware of.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

Are there any other questions to the witnesses?

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

No, I do not have any questions for the witnesses, but I would like to raise a point of order.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Mr. Ménard.

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Chairman, I first of all want to make sure that we will get the binder for the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-18. Since we will be dealing with this on Thursday, I want to make sure that we will be receiving this binder by Wednesday at the latest, so that we can read it.

In addition, could we ask the research staff to draw up the list of current designated offences and a list of those that will be added to the bill? I'm referring to a table, a quick summary.

Mr. Chairman, my second point of order pertains to my motion. I don't want it to be sent to the steering committee. I want us to be able to debate it. Given that I gave the requisite advance notice, this is my prerogative under the standing orders. I would repeat to the government that I am prepared to accept Ms. Jennings' analysis calling for an additional meeting per week. The motion comes from the steering committee and it therefore was subject to debate.

In my opinion, we should vote on the matter now. I can accept the fact that the government may not be in favour of the idea; that is its prerogative. I am acting in good faith. The last time, Mr. Moore asked me whether I would agree to have another meeting added to discuss the judicial selection process. I wasn't entirely convinced that this was necessary, but I said to myself that, after all, it was important to work in a collegial atmosphere.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Mr. Ménard, I'm going to interrupt you, if I may. We will deal with this momentarily.

We have four witnesses sitting at this table yet, and I'm going to thank them for appearing. We really appreciate the information they have passed on to us.

Mr. Bird.

February 27th, 2007 / 10:50 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

David Bird

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've just been advised by my colleague Mr. Yost, from the Department of Justice, that the clause-by-clause book is being printed as we speak here today. As soon as it's possible, I understand this will be presented to you. I hope that helps.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Yes, it will, very much so.

Thank you all very much for appearing before our committee.

At this point in time I'm going to suspend for two minutes.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I'll call the meeting back to order.

Quickly, on the second point that Monsieur Ménard brought forward on his point of order in reference to the provisions in the Criminal Code that would be amended by Bill C-18, there is a list here already. I think it's been submitted to the entire committee, including the definitions.

Do you not have a copy of that?

10:55 a.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

I would like a table. What we have is a 25-page document. I would like a table that summarizes the new offences so we have them right before us and we can see them at a glance. I read this 20-page document. Before we vote, unless this is already included in the departmental documents—

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Okay, there will be additional information--