Justice Committee on April 24th, 2007

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I want to get on to some other topics. It's just that there has been dramatic criticism of those changes. Thank you.

The department has indicated, in writing and under questioning, that a large number of recommendations have been provided to research on the costs of these bills. There are obviously costs to the justice system for a number of the bills you outlined in your opening remarks, and of course we're all interested in that financial session. I'm just wondering if you would endeavour to provide to the committee the research the department provided to you on the potential cost implications of the various bills the department is bringing forward.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'll let Mr. Sims speak on behalf of the department.

[John Sims, Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice]

Perhaps, if I might, Mr. Chair, the government appreciates that in fact there are costs related to the adoption of some of these legislative measures. Much of the impact will be felt by provinces and territories. As a result of that, there has been ongoing work in the federal-provincial-territorial forum to examine what the extent of that impact will be.

Recent efforts have been made to develop a common methodology that all jurisdictions can agree on to determine just what those costs will be. At the June meeting of deputy ministers of the FPT jurisdictions, a report will be tabled that will explain the methodology, which I hope by then will be a consensus model, so we can then begin to assess the cost. So that work is ongoing. There is an appreciation that the work needs to be done. I hope it will be at an advanced stage by June.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

We'll go to Ms. Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Good morning. Thank you for being here today, Mr. Nicholson, Mr. Sims and Mr. Saunders.

I have three questions for the minister.

My first question is about cost recovery. It states on page 35 of the Report on Plans and Priorities of the Department of Justice that the department recovers some of the costs incurred for legal advisory, litigation and legislative services to government. On page 17-4 of the Main Estimates, we read that the department expects to recover $178 million for providing such services to the government.

Can you tell us why the Department of Justice has adopted cost recovery? How high would the administrative costs be for establishing a cost-recovery strategy? How many client departments and agencies will have to pay for legal services provided by the Department of Justice? Will cost recovery discourage departments and agencies from asking for legal assistance? Finally, is cost recovery a prudent way of avoiding potential legal problems?

Second, the department calls on some lawyers in private practice to deal with some issues. I would like to know how frequently this was done during the last fiscal year and for which issues in particular. I would like to know how many times that happened, the cost of it and the reason why the department did not deal with the issue itself. Can you give me some explanation about this?

My third question is about legal aid. At the moment, I'm aware that one of the justice department's strategic outcomes is to provide a fair, relevant and accessible justice system. The justice system has become so expensive that the average person or disadvantaged people are no longer represented by lawyers, and this creates a problem within the justice administration system.

In the breakdown of the legal aid budget, what is the split between the federal government and the provincial government? For example, I would like to know what Quebec should be receiving.

I would appreciate answers to these questions if you are able to provide them.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you.

Madame Freeman, I'll go first with legal aid, and on some of your other comments about cost recovery, I'll ask Mr. Sims to respond.

I'll provide you with the details of exactly how much the Province of Quebec will be receiving from legal aid. I agree with your comments that legal aid for individuals caught up in the criminal justice system is an important component of making the system work, and when people do not have legal representation, it actually is not cost effective, in the sense that delays in courts and difficulties with trials proceeding can result. This is a shared responsibility, and for the most part most of the funding comes from the individual provinces and is administered by them. The money that comes from the federal government is a contribution to that. With respect to the specific amounts each province gets, in particular the Province of Quebec, I will be pleased to get that and will forward it to you.

With respect to cost recovery, it is highlighted differently now in the budget, and you picked up on that. It is not something new that the Department of Justice charges other departments or agencies for the legal services it provides. There are a number of reasons for that. There's nothing free in this world. Within the budgets of other departments, we want them to be careful in terms of the services they demand. As with anything, there's not unlimited availability of any services for any department. So this is one way of ensuring that costs are contained by showing the true cost.

With respect to that, I know Mr. Sims has a couple of remarks he would like to make, so I will turn it over to him, if you don't mind.

[John Sims]

Thank you, Minister and Ms. Freeman.

The figures for cost recovery appear in the documents for the first time this year, but it is not a new practice. The practice whereby we recover in part the cost of the services provided to departments and agencies has been in place for a long time. We simply had to decide how to ensure that they would be reflected in the documents we tabled in Parliament.

As the minister just explained, we think this system reflects the roles and responsibilities of the Department of Justice, the client departments and central agencies such as Treasury Board and the Department of Finance, for example. This system works well. If you would like more details on it, I would be pleased to provide them, if I can. Did you get an answer to your question about legal agents?

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

No.

[John Sims]

Last year we used the services of legal agents in about 260 cases. We follow a policy that sets out how and for what type of case we should turn to outside legal agents. It often happens if a dispute prevents our department from acting, for example. Normally the Department of Justice is responsible for providing legal services for the government, but in some cases that is not possible.

Sometimes there is no dispute, but the case requires special expertise not available within the department. There may also be geographic considerations. We have lawyers throughout the country, but sometimes we may not have a lawyer in a region where the services are required. For the moment I am talking about civil cases, not criminal matters, which come under the responsibility of my colleague, Mr. Saunders.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

You spoke about geographic considerations, but can you give some concrete examples of civil cases where you dealt with lawyers from the private sector?

[John Sims]

Normally, for civil matters, the case would be a large one involving considerable amounts of money. I have some colleagues in the room who could perhaps come and whisper a few names in my ear while I'm answering your other questions.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Mr. Saunders, could you tell me whether you deal with the private sector on the criminal side?

[Brian Saunders]

Yes.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Could you give some examples of cases?

[Brian Saunders]

No, but I can describe the circumstances under which we turn to legal agents.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Fine.

[Brian Saunders]

Our practice is somewhat different from that of the Department of Justice. We have 16 regional offices throughout Canada. Over 700 legal agents work for us.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

What criteria do you use to choose lawyers in private practice?

[Brian Saunders]

If we are looking for a lawyer in a region of Canada where we have no office, we publish advertisements in the local newspaper and at the court itself. We then evaluate the candidates. The criteria for evaluating legal agents are substantially the same as those we use to evaluate lawyers we are considering hiring full-time.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Can you—

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mrs. Freeman.

Monsieur Petit.

I'm sorry. I know, Mr. Sims, that you have one short comment to make. Perhaps you could make that, please. Then we'll go to Mr. Petit.

[John Sims]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was just going to give quelques exemples de cas, madame. Pour celui des maritime helicopters,

which involve a substantial commercial contract, we use the services of an outside legal agent. The same was true of the pension surplus case, which is now before the courts, and the Victor Buffalo case, which comes under our office in the Prairies. The issue is the oil revenues of an aboriginal band, and the amounts involved are huge.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Can you—

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mrs. Freeman.

Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your answers.

Good morning, Minister. I would like to ask a question that is very important to me. It has to do with one of the reasons I joined this party. I am referring here to the establishment of a victims' ombudsman. I have been practising law for 34 years, and I know that at the federal level, the victims' ombudsman position did not exist before. Our party established it. I am even prouder of the fact that this week, from April 22 to April 28 has been declared the National Victims Awareness Week. That's not just an advertisement, it is a fact.

This is completely new. Not only are we doing what needs to be done to enforce more stringent legislation, but we are also helping victims. That is important. In my province, many victims of crimes, such as a sexual offence against a young boy or girl, do not get the support they need. I would like you to tell us why you chose this objective and why criminal enforcement activities have been enforced in the case of the ombudsman.