Evidence of meeting #65 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accused.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Tremblay  General Counsel and Director, Official Languages Law Group, Department of Justice
Anouk Desaulniers  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I call the meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to order, it being Wednesday, May 2, 2007. I think everyone should have a copy of the agenda.

The first item on the list, pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, October 16, 2006, is Bill C-23, an act to amend the Criminal Code on criminal procedure, language of the accused, sentencing, and other amendments, which is before the committee.

Appearing this afternoon is the Honourable Rob Nicholson, Minister of Justice, along with some members from the Department of Justice. I will provide the opportunity for Mr. Nicholson to introduce them.

Minister, you have the floor.

3:30 p.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

You're quite correct, I'm very pleased to be joined by Ms. Anouk Desaulniers, senior counsel, criminal law policy section of the Department of Justice; and Marc Tremblay, general counsel and director of the official languages law group.

I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, for the opportunity to be back with you again as you begin your consideration of BillC-23.

I note that during second reading debates, all parties expressed general support for Bill C-23. This bill introduces Criminal Code amendments to update, improve and modernize the law by enhancing the efficiency of criminal procedures, strengthening sentencing measures and clarifying court-related language rights provisions.

Most of the changes brought about by BillC-23 are the result of our work with the provinces and territories as well as stakeholders. These participants and stakeholders in the criminal justice system have been influentual in helping us identify amendments that needed to be made, whether they be deficiencies, gaps, or ways to improve the criminal justice system. Bill C-23 contains a number of technical amendments that, among other things, clarify the meaning of certain provisions.

The bill also includes amendments of a more substantive nature to update the Criminal Code in targeted areas of the code. There are over 40 clauses in Bill C-23, most of which are unrelated. I propose to simply highlight some of them for you today.

Following this brief overview, I'd be pleased to answer questions that the committee members may have, with the assistance, of course, of the departmental officials.

The amendments fall into three principal areas, namely criminal procedure, language of trial, and sentencing.

With respect to criminal procedure, most of the amendments are technical and will, among other things, harmonize and consolidate provisions dealing with proof of service of documents, expedite the execution of out-of-province search warrants by taking advantage of technologies, improve the process with respect to the challenge of jurors to assist in preserving the jury's impartiality, identify the proper appeal route for judicial orders to return seized property, and clarify powers of some reconviction courts when a co-accused does not appear for trial.

The Criminal Code amendments that are considered of a more substantive nature include: the right of an accused to change his or her mode of trial when the Supreme Court of Canada orders a judge and jury trial to be retried, or in cases where an indictment is preferred--that is, where the crown files the indictment directly with the Superior Court; the reclassification of the offence of possessing break-in instruments, which is currently a strictly indictable offence, to a dual procedure to allow the prosecution to elect to proceed by way of indictment or way of summary conviction procedure; and the creation of a corresponding offence for the breach of a non-communication order imposed on an accused who is remanded to pre-trial custody.

With respect to language rights amendments, sections 530 and 530.1 of the Criminal Code guarantee the right of all accused persons to have their preliminary inquiry and trial before a court that speaks their official language. These sections also provide that the Crown prosecutor conducting the prosecution must speak the language of the accused.

These rights have been enforced throughout Canada since January 1, 1990. Canadians have told us, however, that there are still obstacles to full, complete, and equal access to the criminal justice system in one's official language. Court decisions as well as reports by different stakeholders also confirm the need to improve and clarify the current language-of-trial provisions.

The courts have indeed had to wrestle over the years with a number of issues with regard to the proper interpretation of these provisions and their decisions highlight the need for some fine-tuning.

The purpose of these amendments is therefore to ensure a better implementation of the language-of-trial provisions as well as rectify some of the shortcomings identified in a number of studies and by the courts. For instance, one amendment would heed the advice given by the Supreme Court of Canada by requiring courts to inform all accused persons of their right to be tried in their official language, whether they are represented by counsel or not.

The Commissioner of Official Languages, in a 1995 study entitled “The Equitable Use of English and French Before the Courts in Canada”, had also recommended that all accused be better informed of their right to a trial in the official language of their choice.

Another amendment will require that the charging document be translated into the language of the accused upon request. This follows court decisions requiring that such an important document be translated upon request, since it is a logical complement to the accused person's exercising their language rights. Where the charging document has been translated, a further amendment would make clear that where there is an inconsistency between the original version of the document and a translated version, the original charging document would prevail.

Another proposed amendment would provide the presiding judge with the power to issue appropriate orders to contribute to the efficient conduct of bilingual trials. The absence of such provisions has led to fruitless debates, and it is time to bring greater efficiency to such proceedings. Other amendments simply resolve certain anomalies and problems identified with the existing provisions.

On the whole, these amendments bring the language-of-trial provisions of the Criminal Code in line with the judicial interpretation, while also removing some of the hurdles on the road to greater access to justice in both official languages. Under the sentencing portion of the bill, technical as well as substantive amendments have also been put together to respond to current realities or to fill certain gaps. For example, one technical amendment provides for sentencing courts to suspend a conditional sentence order or a probation order during an appeal.

Another amendment will remove uncertainty regarding the application of impaired driving penalties. One such important amendment will clarify that the minimum fine and minimum jail terms that apply for a first, second, and subsequent impaired driving offence, such as operation of a motor vehicle while impaired and refusal to provide a breath sample, do apply to the more serious situations of impaired driving causing bodily harm. The legislation will make it clear that repeat impaired driving offenders whose new offence causes death will have a mandatory period of incarceration and will therefore not be eligible for conditional sentence of imprisonment.

The more substantive changes in Bill C-23 propose to provide courts with the powers to order an offender not to communicate with identified persons while in custody, delay sentencing proceedings so that an offender can participate in a provincially approved treatment program, order the forfeiture of computers and other things used in relation to the offence of Internet luring on application by the attorney general after an accused has been convicted of that offence, order that a driving prohibition be served consecutively to any existing prohibition order, and impose a fine of up to $10,000 for a summary conviction offence where no other maximum fine is provided in a federal statute.

With respect to this last amendment, Mr. Chairman, I recognize there have been concerns raised by some honourable members during the second-reading debate. I would like to say that this government is prepared to work in collaboration with committee members regarding this clause as well as with respect to other issues that may arise during the consideration of the bill.

As I mentioned, Bill C-23 was developed in cooperation with our provincial and territorial partners as well as legal experts. Provinces and territories and other justice system stakeholders are keen to see this bill enacted, as it will improve the effectiveness and access to the criminal justice system.

I would be pleased to respond, with the assistance of my officials, to any questions the committee members might have.

Indeed, given the technical nature of many of the amendments, the expertise of our officials will be particularly relevant and helpful.

Thank you, again, Mr. Chairman.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Minister.

I know that you're on a very tight time schedule today.

I would just advise the committee that the minister will be leaving at approximately 4:25. It's unfortunate, but he does have another meeting to attend, which is time-sensitive.

Welcome, Mr. Maloney and Mr. Norlock, to the committee.

Now I'll turn the questions over to Mr. Bagnell.

May 2nd, 2007 / 3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you.

I'm going to share my time with Mr. Lee.

We haven't had a groundswell of complaints about this bill, as you can probably imagine, so I have just a couple of very simple questions.

Maybe staff can say roughly how long this bill has been in preparation.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I know it was introduced, I suppose, about seven or eight months ago now, but prior to that, Monsieur Tremblay, do you know how long?

3:40 p.m.

Marc Tremblay General Counsel and Director, Official Languages Law Group, Department of Justice

It's been a few years now in preparation. From the official languages perspective, in particular, we've been working on this since the 1995 study by the Commissioner of Official Languages. There's been a long history of various steps taken, but it's been that long in development.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Okay.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It was introduced June 22 of last year by the previous Minister of Justice.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Okay, thank you.

Just in a totally non-partisan way, maybe you could outline, both Minister and staff, if there have been any issues that groups or the public might have brought up about the bill, technical issues or others.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

One concern or question raised by honourable members was with respect to the maximum penalties for summary conviction offences where it has not been specified in legislation. That was certainly one of the issues. For my part, I haven't had a lot of feedback, quite frankly. I don't think that should be too surprising. I know that from time to time Parliament puts together some of these amendments, when the need arises or when it has been brought to the attention of the department, and these help let the court system run more efficiently. They expedite the process, so these are generally welcomed by everyone in the judicial system.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

I totally agree with you. I haven't had anything either.

I'm just wondering if the department members of the legal community that you work with know if there have been any issues.

3:45 p.m.

Anouk Desaulniers Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Most criminal law amendments come from resolutions which were passed at the Uniform Law Conference of Canada. As you probably know, it is a forum for provincial Crown prosecutors, defence bar representatives and sometimes judges. Most of the amendments come from resolutions which were passed by a large majority of members of this group.

With respect to sentencing, criminal law amendments are developed by the Federal-Provincial-Territorial Working Group on Sentencing.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

General Counsel and Director, Official Languages Law Group, Department of Justice

Marc Tremblay

The language trial amendments were the object of many discussions. As I mentioned, there were studies by the commissioner that highlighted a certain number of areas that needed improvement. Many of the proposals here are direct responses to those.

To provide you with the most information possible in the shortest time, I think it's fair to say that these amendments are part of a balancing process. On the one hand there is the drive to constantly improve the justice system with respect to access to justice in both official languages, and many of the proposals go in that direction. On the other hand, there are efficiency questions as well as practicality questions that arise interjurisdictionally. The provinces, in some respects, had reservations with some of the proposals being put forward. To take one example, which the committee will very likely hear from the Commissioner of Official Languages, Mr. Fraser, when he appears, there has been pressure to extend the language-of-trial provisions to appeals. The jurisdictions essentially responded that they are unprepared and unable to provide for access to criminal trials on appeals in both official languages because that would require bilingual appellate courts.

It has been an issue of giving the provinces some assurances in terms of greater efficiencies and benefits in the process, as well as advancing the interest of access to justice in both languages in a balanced fashion.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Is there anything left in the bill or the amendments that would leave the onus on the accused to access the official languages right? What I'm trying to get at is whether we've put enough protection in the bill that he's going to officially be provided that right and he wouldn't be unaware of that right by accident.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's interesting that you should raise that. There is one provision, and I think it's a good one. The right to be informed of your right to have a trial in either official language is provided for individuals who are unrepresented by counsel. I guess the assumption was that lawyers are supposed to be smart enough to inform their clients. No doubt lawyers are smart enough to do that; I'm not casting aspersions on the legal community. But we don't want to leave it to chance, so one of the amendments before you requires that all individuals, whether they have counsel or not, be informed of their right to have a trial in either of the official languages. I, for one, like that idea.

It doesn't specify in what way that can be done. It can be done in terms of the judge orally informing the individual. It could be done in terms of documentation that's given to him. There's a combination of things, I suppose. I mean, documentation signs could be posted.

Again, that proposal seems to be a good one, so it's not left to chance. Most lawyers do provide that information to their clients, but why leave it to chance? I think that amendment addresses the concern you've raised.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

Mr. Ménard.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

I'll begin by announcing that I will be tabling an amendment as a result of what we heard from certain witnesses regarding the GPS, specifically, vehicle tracking warrants. You raised the issue of telewarrants, and this aspect would need to be harmonized with the one-year wiretapping warrant. In any event, I could send my amendment to the parliamentary secretary, who can show it to you.

With respect to the language of the accused, I would like to know whether this bill is supported by the Commissioner for Official Languages. He will be appearing before us tomorrow, but I would like to know whether he officially supports this bill.

Also, it seems to me that there may be some possible gaps in the bill, which is a concern. From my understanding, the bill would allow the prosecution, during the trial, to cross-examine a witness who does not speak the language of the accused. Will this type of provision now be authorized? What effect will this have on the requirement to provide interpretation services?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much, Monsieur Ménard.

I think you indicated, with respect to your first question, that you would provide or perhaps have provided the parliamentary secretary to the justice minister with some of the background with respect to your amendment. And of course he and I and I'm sure all committee members will have a very careful look at that.

With respect to what the official languages commissioner will say, I certainly don't want to pre-empt him or even try to conclude what he would say. I believe he will indicate that the steps that we have moved forward on are positive developments. And in his advocacy role, I am quite sure that like all advocates, he may say—again, I'm not putting words into his mouth—that he might like to see further changes into the future. But, again, with respect to the amendments that you have before you, I believe he will indicate that these are positive developments.

With respect to the third issue that you raised, with respect to cross-examinations, there are provisions with respect to the cross-examinations in a trial. I would ask Monsieur Tremblay to provide you with some of those details for your edification.

3:50 p.m.

General Counsel and Director, Official Languages Law Group, Department of Justice

Marc Tremblay

Yes indeed, the provisions and proposed amendments would clarify the right of the accused. I should point out that this right is not constitutional in nature. It is a right which you, as parliamentarians, will confer upon the accused. During our consultations, not only with official language communities and the Commissioner for Official Languages, but also with Crown prosecutors who must effectively prosecute in the interest of public safety, we noted that it was important to them to obtain the best possible evidence in a country where there are bilingual individuals, people like myself, for instance, who could very well testify in either official language and take advantage of the situation. For instance, I could ask for questions to be put in the language of the trial, for instance English, and yet I could also ask for an interpreter. There is a period of time during which the interpreter interprets the information for me, giving me an opportunity to tailor my responses not in the interest of telling the truth, but based on my considerations as a witness.

Federal and provincial prosecutors saw this as an important issue. We should point out that this authority is granted to a judge in the context of ensuring the rights of the accused, which must be upheld. The judge must consider this factor, whether it would be appropriate to issue and order, and whether there has been sufficient debate on the issue between parties; he has the authority to issue this order.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

I have one final question, Mr. Minister. Fines for summary conviction offences will be raised from $2,000 to $10,000. Obviously, this is a concern for poverty advocacy groups. Why is this? Why $10,000? Is this not a significant qualitative step? I am appealing to the social democrat in you who is just waiting for the opportunity to speak. Isn't this somewhat abusive?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I don't know if it's abusive. I wouldn't agree with you, Monsieur Ménard.

I think it's probably overdue that we revisit this. I believe it was in 1985 that it was raised from $500 to $2,000, and it has not been changed since that time. We are proposing to move it from $2,000 to $10,000, but as I indicated to you in my opening remarks, I am prepared to listen to the deliberations of this committee.

I see Monsieur Godin here. His colleague has already indicated that he would like to see a different amount, and I won't put words in his mouth, but I believe he was looking at a maximum fine of $5,000. I will indicate to you, at this time, that I certainly would be prepared to look favourably on that if it works towards expediting this bill, which, as I indicated in my opening remarks, seems to have widespread support. I would certainly have a look at that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

Mr. Godin.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First off, I'd like to welcome you to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. This is not a committee I usually sit on, but since we're talking about official languages—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I should almost welcome you to the committee, Monsieur Godin.