Evidence of meeting #7 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was police.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Grégoire Webber  Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I call to order the meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, keeping in mind that we are still reviewing sections 25.1 to 25.4 of the Criminal Code on protection of persons administering and enforcing the law.

We have the good fortune today of having a videoconference from London, England, with Mr. Grégoire Webber. He is a scholar at Oxford University who has studied these sections and probably is one of actually a few people who have some knowledge on this legislation. It's somewhat different and new.

Mr. Webber, welcome to the committee. How's everything over in London?

3:30 p.m.

Grégoire Webber Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Very good.

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Good.

Our process here is that you will have an opportunity to testify for about 10 to 12 minutes, and it will be followed by a series of questions from all parties sitting at this committee table.

If you would like to begin, we would be pleased to hear what you have to say.

3:30 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

Perfect. Thank you very much.

Good afternoon. I would like to begin by thanking the Committee for giving me this opportunity to speak today and for facilitating my testimony through video-conferencing.

I am a member of the Ontario Bar, and am currently pursuing a Doctorate in Constitutional Law at Oxford University, as mentioned by the Chair. My testimony here today, however, is my own alone. In other words, I do not purport to represent Oxford University or the Trudeau Foundation, of which I am a member.

The crux of my presentation flows from a paper that I wrote which is entitled: Legal Lawlessness and the Rule of Law: A Critique of Section 25.1 of the Criminal Code. This paper examines the constitutionality of the regime set out in clause 25.1 and following, and concludes that this regime raises significant constitutional issues. This study was published in 2005 by the Queen's Law Journal, volume 31, and can be downloaded from the Trudeau Foundation's website under the heading « News ».

With your permission, I would like to give a brief overview of the three points I intend to cover in the 10 to 12 minutes available to me. Following that, I will make detailed comments on each point. Before I do that, though, I wish to point out that in principle, I support the exemption regime currently under review. My comments are really intended to identify specific difficulties with the way this regime is framed and to suggest alternatives.

Let's move now to my first point.

The justification for clauses 25.1 and following of the Criminal Code relies mainly on the need to provide police with new, exceptional powers so that they are in a better position to fight organized crime through undercover operations. However, nowhere in this legislation does it say that these exceptional powers can be used for the sole purpose of fighting organized crime and for undercover operations.

Second, the process for designating a “public officer” within the meaning of the law is inadequate, in that the designation authorizes that person to commit criminal offences subsequently that were not specifically authorized by the minister or by a senior official. Once designated, the public officer relies on his own authority for the purposes of committing criminal offences. In English, we would say he becomes a law onto himself.

Third, two previous points are important not only in themselves, but also from a constitutional standpoint. The Supreme Court ruling in Campbell and Shirose does not seem to lend itself to an interpretation that would support the regime as it is currently framed. In other words, the scope of the regime as it is currently proposed is too broad, and the rules for authorizing criminal offences, too loose to be deemed constitutional, in my opinion.

There is a fourth point that I will not have time to comment on as part of my presentation, but we could perhaps discuss it afterwards, if you're interested. It has to do with ways of increasing protection against abuse of these exceptional powers through changes in civilian oversight and annual reports, as well as through the addition of a more general requirement for disclosure.

I would now like to make more detailed comments with respect to my first point, regarding the justification or the exemption regime and fighting organized crime.

When clause 25.1 and following of the Criminal Code were passed into law in 2001, they were part of Bill C-24, an Act to amend the Criminal Code (organized crime and law enforcement). Today, the title of your study refers to “protection of persons administering and enforcing the law”. The reference to organized crime is no longer there, and that is appropriate, because the legislation under review makes no reference to organized crime. However, in the testimony that you heard, much of the focus was on organized crime, fighting terrorism, and undercover operations. The use of these powers was not mentioned in connection with police investigations that are unrelated to organized crime or undercover operations, with the exception, I believe, of an example dealing with a boat or plane that has to engage in a chase at night with its lights off, in order to avoid detection.

This leads me to my first recommendation for the Committee: to amend the law to limit its application to investigations related to organized crime and undercover operations, as well as a few other targeted areas of police activity. In that way, the scope of the law will be in keeping with its justification.

I move now to my second point: the lack of a procedure for authorizing the unlawful behaviour itself.

There are two regimes set out in the Code for the purposes of authorizing a public officer to commit a criminal offence. The first is the general enforcement regime. It is set out in section 25.1, subsection (8). This provision requires that the public officer be designated by the minister, but it does not require that this designation have attached to it specific conditions, such as the term of the designation or the offences the public officer is authorized to commit. Once designated, the public officer is justified in committing an act if he or she believes, on reasonable grounds, that committing the act is reasonable and proportional. In other words, there is no oversight prior to the commission of the act itself.

However, there is also a second regime. It is under section 25.1, subsection (9), and applies only in cases where an offence is likely to result in loss of or serious damage to property, or if the public officer is directing a third party to commit an offence. In this case, the two criteria associated with the first regime are stated again: the public officer must be designated, and he must believe, on reasonable grounds, that the act is reasonable and proportional. However, there is a third criterion: before committing the offence, he must personally have been given written authorization by a senior official. The senior official must also believe, on reasonable grounds, that the act is reasonable and proportional. There are certain exceptions to the requirements for prior written authorization, namely in emergency situations as laid out in subsection 25.1(9).

I am suggesting that this second regime be the only regime for justifying the commission of criminal offences by a public officer. I am suggesting this on the basis that no individual, not even a public officer, should be able to decide on his own whether he can commit a criminal offence. Before committing such an offence, he must receive specific authorization.

Although my objection is a conceptual one, I was very pleased to hear that the RCMP has in fact established a requirement for prior authorization in the context of its own operations. The Assistant RCMP Commissioner, Mr. Souccar, confirmed in his testimony before the Committee that no public officer can commit a criminal offence without receiving written authorization from a senior RCMP official. In other words, the RCMP has adopted a version of the prior authorization regime for all its operations, even though the Code does not currently require that.

My recommendation is therefore to amend the Criminal Code to require, with the exception of emergency situations, that a public officer obtain written authorization from a senior official before committing a criminal offence.

I have one more point, which I'll address in English.

Having established that the framework for these powers does not limit them to the investigation of organized crime and undercover operations, and having evaluated the scope of the authorization given to public officers to commit acts that would otherwise constitute a crime, I now turn to my third point, which deals with the constitutional question.

You might ask why we should incorporate the changes that I have suggested rather than leaving these matters to the good judgment of the police forces. There are, I think, two answers, neither of which questions the integrity of our police forces. The first is to recognize that the powers granted to our police forces under section 25.1 and following are important--indeed, they are exceptional. And to the extent that we authorize any person to commit acts that would otherwise be criminal, we should strive to provide an adequate framework for its exercise and for the supervision of its exercise. And this framework should be provided for by law. In other words, it must have the force of law, and not merely the force of a guideline internal to a police force.

The second answer is as important. If the framework for these exceptional powers is not sufficiently circumscribed, the constitutionality of the very framework may be in question.

Allow me to read one short passage from the judgment of the Supreme Court of Canada in Campbell and Shirose, which, as you know, is the judgment that largely served as the impetus for this legislation: “General 'law enforcement justification' would run counter to the fundamental constitutional principles.” And here the Supreme Court of Canada was referring to the constitutional principle of the rule of law, the very principle outlined in section 25.1(2) of the sections under study.

The concern with the sections under review is that they indeed constitute the very general law enforcement justification that the Supreme Court of Canada warned against, “general” in the sense that they are not limited to the investigation of organized crime and other targeted criminal activities but rather apply to the investigation of any criminal activity, and “general” also in the sense that in the normal case a public officer need not seek prior authorization before committing an act that would otherwise be criminal.

Hence, I move to my conclusion, mentioning only that there is a fourth point, which I would be happy to discuss in the course of your questions, regarding increased protection against potential abuse.

I thank you for your attention, and I look forward to your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Webber.

You made some interesting points. I will ask one question, for the benefit of the committee. How familiar are you with organized criminal investigations? You brought some points up that would certainly impact on some of those investigations, were they to be enacted. When you looked at the examples that were presented, the reports that were submitted by police officers--RCMP officers in particular, I believe--reflecting certain investigations that went on, are you aware of how those investigations were conducted and if your suggestions would impact on any of those particular points?

3:40 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

In reference to that question, I have as much information as the average Canadian citizen in that respect. However, I am comforted to know, having reviewed the testimony of the lawyers from the Department of Justice that you had in your first meeting and the testimony of the RCMP members who came to your second meeting, that they both focused on the importance of this law for the purposes of organized crime and undercover operations.

My suggestion therefore draws on their testimony as to the importance of this legislation for those purposes and the absence of any mention of the use of this legislation for other purposes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Webber, for that answer.

I would like to go to questions now from Mr. Bagnell.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Could you give us the citation of where we can find your paper again? Did you say it was Queen's Law Journal?

3:40 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

Yes, that's correct. It's in the 2005 Queen's Law Journal, volume 31.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

You said in your opening that you wouldn't have enough time to finish something. If we gave you time during one of our questions, would there be more that you would want to say?

3:45 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

I had a couple of suggestions regarding how to increase protection against potential abuse of these sections that I would be happy to discuss.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Okay, we'll give you some time later in one of our questions.

My first question is related to not a specific act...there's not enough specification on what they're investigating. There are two things. First, obviously, because they have to report annually and the reports are public, if they were doing something that was frivolous or unintended, wasn't a serious crime, then that would become obvious to everyone reading the reports and I don't think the police or anyone would want to be open to that type of transparency and criticism for not investigating something serious.

Secondly, does the nature of the crime they charge the person with really matter, especially if they were most likely to be after serious criminals? For instance, was Al Capone not eventually charged with income tax fraud, as opposed to something serious that might have been specified, in specifying an investigation that you are talking about now? I think people were very happy that Al Capone was put in jail.

3:45 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

Right. I definitely won't question that last conclusion.

You had two questions. The first was respecting the public reports and the second respecting the potential difficulties with restraining this solely to organized crime. Let me address each in turn.

The public reports, as you may know, don't require the disclosure of every use of these sections. Indeed, they only require the use of certain exceptional provisions of these sections, namely, when the police authorize the use of these sections that would cause important damage to property and where the police authorize a non-police member to use these sections.

In the normal course, if neither the use of these sections for property or the use of these sections to authorize a third person are at issue, there is no obligation of reporting. Indeed, one of the recommendations I would have for your committee is to increase the reporting requirements to all activities, not merely to those two.

Secondly, as for limiting this to organized crime, I think there would be ways of addressing your concern in the manner in which the exception could be built into the law. In fact, we wouldn't have to specify specific legislation as such. We could include a provision that said that in the opinion of the senior official, it is necessary for the purposes of this particular investigation. Currently, there is no such restriction on the use of these provisions.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

So you're saying that if a police force used this exemption and broke the law, unless it was in those two conditions that you specified--one was that they allowed a witness...and the other that they damaged property--we would never hear about it. So they could have broken the law numerous times and no one would know.

3:45 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

That's correct. We can look at this section together, and I can pull it up right here. We're looking at “annual report”, section 25.3. We have three areas, paragraphs 25.3(1)(a), (b), and (c), and we have to disclose:

(a) the number of designations made under subsection 25.1(6) by the senior officials;

That's emergency designations. In other words, where the minister hasn't already designated a public officer, a senior official--for example, the member that you had from the RCMP--may, for a period of 48 hours, designate that person. So that has to be disclosed.

Under paragraph 25.3(1)(b)--

(b) the number of authorizations made under paragraph 25.1(9)(a) by the senior officials;

--that is the property damage I just mentioned.

And 25.3(1)(c):

(c) the number of times that acts and omissions were committed in accordance with paragraph 25.1(9)(b) by the public officers;

And again, that's delegating to an informant.

So in the normal course of these provisions, there is no obligation of disclosure under the annual report.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I assume that you're happy that the RCMP, on their own, have limited the designation to a three-year term. You're suggesting there should be a term?

3:45 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

In fact, I'm very comforted by the way the RCMP is taking its responsibility under these provisions. I'm suggesting that we should take the example of the RCMP and provide the very guidelines it has provided for itself in the act.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Again, in relation to limiting what's investigated, once a person is designated and involved in a number of serious operations, wouldn't they very often not be aware of when that person would have to break a law? He wouldn't necessarily be aware of what criminal acitivity was going on and how he would do it, so he couldn't get this type of pre-authorization or limitation that you're talking about.

3:50 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

The pre-authorization is only for the truances that have to be disclosed in the annual report, namely important damage to property and delegating the authority to break the law to a non-police member, such as an informant. The difficulty I have is that with the exception of these two examples, there is no obligation of prior authorization from anyone. In other words, once the minister has designated a member of the police force, it is up to that individual member to use his or her good judgment to find out when it would be reasonable and proportional under the circumstances to break the law. I'm suggesting that we should add a requirement of prior authorization from a senior member.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I was just saying, as incidents come up, he may not have time to be pre-authorized. It may happen quickly in these things.

3:50 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

You're absolutely right. That's why in those cases where the law currently provides for prior authorization and makes exceptions in urgent circumstances, I would wish to maintain those.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

Mr. Ménard.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Good afternoon.

I would like to discuss two aspects of your testimony with you. As we sought to gain an understanding of the scope of the current law and the circumstances in which this justification regime is used, of course, much of what we were told focussed on organized crime and undercover operations, which is understandable. In fact, we were also told about immigration-related operations.

As you know, there is a great deal of debate at this time in both Canada and Québec regarding the human trafficking, despite the fact that we passed Bill C-49. Why do you think that we should rigourously limit the scope of the law to activities related to organized crime? Are you not concerned that this would be unduly restrictive in relation to the goal being pursued?

3:50 p.m.

Trudeau Scholar, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, Oxford University, As an Individual

Grégoire Webber

That's a very good question.

I'd like to come back to the recommendation I made in my testimony, which is to amend the law to restrict its application to investigations related to organized crime and undercover operations, as well as several other targeted areas of police activity.

I am not saying that we must limit this to organized crime and undercover operations, and turn a blind eye to all other requests. However, let's ascertain the circumstances in which these provisions are really necessary and limit the scope of the law to those specific circumstances. The difficulty I see is that the law, as currently drafted, assumes that these powers are necessary in all cases. In the testimony you heard from the Department of Justice and the RCMP, they did not claim that these powers were necessary in all cases. I agree with you -- and annual reports demonstrate this -- that they can often be needed in immigration-related cases. I would be very pleased to see the law being enforced in such circumstances.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

I see. One of your colleagues was very concerned about civil liberties and human rights. He spoke to us about an accommodation involving judicial review.

Now you did not use that term; instead, you expressed the desire that public officials receive authorization under all circumstances. But have you thought of the possibility of requiring judicial review per se? In other words, the requirement to put the matter before a judge in very specific circumstances and have a court of law validate the kind of operations covered in these sections. Have you considered that option?