Justice Committee on Feb. 12th, 2008

[Dr. Robert Mann]

I can comment on that if that's okay.

We talk about remedial programs for convicted offenders, and I think most provinces now have remedial programs that all offenders must complete. The data on those programs are fairly impressive. Once they are in those programs and complete the programs, the chances of recidivism are reduced and the high-risk drinking behaviour declines. We see declines in drug use as well. That part of the system seems to be working fairly well. Now there are differences between provinces, but it is an important part of our overall effort to address the impaired driving problem.

If I could comment, though, the difficulty, if we're really trying to prevent deaths on our roads, is that if you look at the people killed in impaired driving collisions, a relatively small proportion, maybe 5%, 10%, or 15%, are actually repeat offenders. The large majority are people who have never been caught before.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Réal Ménard]

Your time is up, but because this committee is famous for being flexible, I will allow one final comment.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

It's half an hour.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Réal Ménard]

No, you've gone over the 15-second limit. Quickly, please, so we can move on to Ms. Freeman.

[Émile Therrien, Spokesperson, Canada Safety Council]

Could I just make a point? Quebec does not have administrative licence suspensions, but they just went through proposed amendments to the traffic code, and that was one of the things on their agenda. That did not go through, but I would say that within the next year you will see it.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Réal Ménard]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

You have the floor, Ms. Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I want to thank all of the witnesses for their presentations.

Quebec is different from other provinces in that there are no administrative measures in place. I don't know if you are familiar with Mr. De Koninck's report which was recently released. Quebec did in fact debate whether or not to lower the BAC to 0.05% or to keep it at 0.08%. In his report, Mr. De Koninck recommended, among other things, an increase in the perceived risk of apprehension. There appears to be a consensus on the question of introducing ignition interlock devices. That is how the system works in Quebec. The BAC limit for the operation of a vehicle in 0.08%.

Mention was made of other provinces and of the limits in other countries. Has a study been done on limits in other countries? We have here a report by the Canada Safety Council which mentions a study done by Professor David Paciocco of the University of Ottawa's Faculty of Law. This study looks at 77 governments, but I am not sure if these were European governments. The report notes that of these 77 governments, only 10 have taken steps to lower the BAC limit to 0.05% and that this not really an effective measure.

I would like to hear your individual views on this subject. In particular, I am curious about the legal limits in other countries.

[Raynald Marchand]

The studies done by David Paciocco of the University of Ottawa found that the majority of these 77 governments do not impose prison terms, do not treat BAC levels of 0.05% as a criminal offence. Instead, they...

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

...opt for administrative measures?

[Raynald Marchand]

The measures tend to be of an administrative nature.

For that reason, in the case of a BAC reading of 0.05%, for example, the provinces resort to administrative measures and to regulations where people are asked to enrol in programs to overcome or control their dependency on alcohol.

Other provinces tend to exclude the 0.05% threshold from the Criminal Code. At least that is true in cases where only one code applies. Here we have two codes, the provincial code and the federal code. In countries like Belgium where there is only one code, because there are no provinces like we have here, authorities do not tend to impose a prison sentence when the BAC reading is 0.05%, but rather when levels reach 0.08% or even 0.10% in some cases.

That is the difference. The report, which was updated in 2006, shows that much hasn't changed internationally. Impaired drivers are subject to very harsh sanctions in Canada.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Is Canada viewed as one of the toughest countries?

[Raynald Marchand]

Yes, it is.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

So then, you're saying that our system is one of the toughest.

[Raynald Marchand]

Yes, of all Western nations that have a government similar to ours.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

So then, the 77 governments in the study were European governments?

[Raynald Marchand]

The study looked at governments in Europe, in different US states and elsewhere, for example, in Australia.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

We hear a lot about Europe and the other provinces, but generally speaking, how is the problem dealt with in the United States?

[Raynald Marchand]

In the United States, the BAC limit for the operation of a vehicle is 0.08% Although impaired drivers are more often sentenced to a prison term in the United States, the maximum sentence imposed is two years, whereas Canada's Criminal Code provides for a maximum sentence of five years. Therefore, our sanctions are harsher than the ones imposed in the United States.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

By that you mean that our sentencing provisions are harsher and that the legislation is more stringently enforced. In what way exactly?

[Raynald Marchand]

I mean that the sanctions imposed are more severe. In some US states, impaired driving is not a criminal offence, unless someone is killed. That's not quite the way it is in Canada. It becomes a criminal offence in some cases, only after the third offence. A BAC level of 0.08% is considerable acceptable. That is new because in the past, in some instances, the acceptable threshold was 1.01%. First-time offenders may be sentenced to a maximum of two years in prison, whereas in Canada, the maximum sentence is five years.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I see. Thank you.

Mr. Murie or Ms. Miller, does MADD have a position on this? The penalties imposed by Canada are seen as being among the harshest. What are your views on the subject?

[Andrew Murie]

There are a couple of things. When you talk about the 77 governments, you have to realize that 52 of them are in the United States, so let's be fair about this. This isn't 77 governments of independent countries; 52 of the 77 are the individual states. I am correct on that.

[Raynald Marchand]

No, that's not quite....

[Andrew Murie]

It is; the number is.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Can you tell us about the 77 governments in this case? Were they European governments? I know I already asked you that question, but you...