Justice Committee on Feb. 12th, 2008

[Andrew Murie]

That is correct.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In addition to that, are we looking at having to have more random breath tests administered at the provincial level for the 0.05 limit to be applied effectively?

[Andrew Murie]

I want to be very clear that random breath tests will work at any BAC level.

[Émile Therrien]

The Canada Safety Council published some pretty good research, a paper, a couple of years ago. I think we referenced it in our paper. It's called, Low-BAC Drivers and the Law.

We call upon the provinces, we call upon Quebec, to get on board with administrative licence suspensions, and also to standardize the sanctions right across the provinces. Believe it or not, Ontario, if you were caught, administered a licence suspension of 12 hours and that was it. It was not reported to your insurance. If these were standardized across the provinces and you moved from here to Rimouski from or Rimouski to Vancouver, that would be right there so they would know what's going on.

At this point it's not happening. In all fairness to the provinces, they have a lot on their plate and I don't know if they have the resources to do it, but in time they will have to do it.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Why are you optimistic that Quebec is going to move when they just rejected it?

[Émile Therrien]

I think there were so many things on their plate. If you looked at the amendments to the highway traffic safety act, there were a lot there.

I'm optimistic that they will. I've had conversations with the media in Quebec and they say this may be the next step in the next year. I would hope so. I think it makes a lot of sense.

[Raynald Marchand]

We believe that Quebec will eventually follow. I think we all agree about the zero for new drivers and the 0.05 and 0.08. I think it's in how we do it.

We believe the deterrence has to be there. In order to be there we have to have a simple way to remove them off the road right away and process them quickly. If we send all of that to the Criminal Code it will be so tough that we're going to discourage or eliminate these RIDE programs, because there aren't the resources. We want to see it done quickly and effectively.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

We'll let Mr. Murie respond, and then we'll come to you, Mr. Mann.

[Andrew Murie]

Random breath testing will work at any level. If it were introduced today at the 0.08 level, it would make a significant reduction in impaired driving deaths. It will work even more effectively at an 0.05 level. Again, both of those measures drive down the number of drinking drivers on the roadways. In effect it also lowers the BAC levels they drive at, and that's where you save lives.

[Dr. Robert Mann]

If I could comment, again you can look at the evidence if you're looking at how things ought to be done. I want to highlight that there are studies in the scientific literature that the roadside suspensions in Canada at 0.05 do not work. They have not had an impact. And there are studies in the scientific literature that show that the criminal actions introduced by Parliament at 0.08 have had an impact, and similar actions have had an impact in other countries.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Réal Ménard]

You have about 15 seconds left.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, earlier today Mr. Murie gave me this chart from an article he had from the Criminal Law Quarterly, which shows the amount of alcohol you can consume. I thought I knew it fairly well from the time I practised criminal law, but I was a bit surprised at how much you can consume and still not be below 0.05 or 0.08.

It's not translated, but I would like him to circulate it to the committee. Or maybe we could arrange to have it translated.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Réal Ménard]

You realize that documents that are not in both languages cannot be distributed. You maintain that this is not a written submission, but more like a table. Correct?

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I can confirm that for you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Réal Ménard]

Did you verify this, Ms. Freeman?

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

We're talking about numbers, which are bilingual. Of course, the title would need to be translated.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I have another question.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Réal Ménard]

Do you have one last question, Mr. Comartin?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I want to go back to this issue of the criminal record, which obviously counsel is concerned about.

Mr. Murie, do you see that as being essential? In order to enforce 0.05, do we have to do it under the code and impose a criminal record?

[Andrew Murie]

No. Others have presented to the federal Parliament on having a federal 0.05 with a limited criminal record for a short period of time. We propose if there's no reoffence that it automatically go away in two years. We recognized that when we made this proposal. We don't want the person with an 0.05 offence to have a long-time Criminal Code record that restricts the ability to travel, get a job, and those type of things, so we took that into consideration. We feel very strongly that the benefits of doing it federally far outweigh a patchwork system at the provincial level.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Réal Ménard]

Thank you. I'm now going to turn the floor over to Mr. Petit, since nine minutes have already elapsed and I would like all of my colleagues to have an opportunity to speak.

Go ahead, Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Mr. Marchand, Mr. Therrien, Mr. White, Mr. Murie and Ms. Miller.

I will try to summarize my question. Most likely either Mr. Marchand or Mr. Therrien will be able to help us.

When a driver is stopped during a roadside spot check and found to have a BAC of 0.08%, a multi-stage process is initiated. There is still no random testing system in place, or if there is one, it may not be accepted and could even be challenged. I think you are in all favour of a random testing system. My question is directed to Mr. Marchand.

When random testing is in place, people are afraid of being arrested and charged, of having to pay fines, and so forth. In my province of Quebec, when an accident occurs, if you are charged with a criminal offence, that does not necessarily mean you are charged with a civil offence. The person you may have injured or killed will be compensated by the Société de l'assurance automobile du Québec. A no-fault system was introduced in 1977.

Before 1977, when alcohol was a factor in an accident, pursuant to section 3 of the insurance company legislation, companies were not responsible for covering damages to a vehicle or personal injuries. Pursuant to the Payette act, which you are equally familiar with, the Government of Quebec assumes partial liability for bodily injuries. Section 3 of the Automobile Insurance Act has been repealed. However, while insurance companies must now cover material damages, i.e. the cost of repairing the car's body work, they turn around and increase their insurance premiums.

We are working together to find ways of increasing people's awareness of drinking and driving and of scaring them. We don't want to send them to prison.

Take, for example, a resident of the small town of La Sarre in the Abitibi region. He must travel 50 kilometres every day to his job in a lumber mill. The family owns only one vehicle, as is often the case. One evening or weekend, after leaving the town bar, he his pulled over and charged. The town has no taxi or transit service. He has no choice but to stay home.

Personally, when I stop in for a drink in Montreal, I don't have a problem because I can catch a taxi or the subway, or walk to my destination. Something isn't quite right here. Yet, when a person finds himself in a bind, he turns to the courts and challenges our legislation. His case may end up before the Supreme Court, cancelling out all of our hard work.

Would you care to propose some solutions, aside from random breath testing and ignition interlock devices?

[Raynald Marchand]

You are quite right, Mr. Petit. It is indeed not easy for these people.

Some solutions could be integrated into the highway safety code, although this is not yet the case in Quebec. There could be certain things at stake. For example, in the not-too-distant future, in Ontario, offenders will be required to take part in programs lasting three days, a week or a month, to determine if they have an alcohol dependency problem and to attempt to address their addiction.

Even if the penalty in Quebec for this offence is a one-year license suspension, those who qualify may, after three months, drive a vehicle equipped with an ignition lock device during certain times of the day. This is important for people living in rural areas where alternative services are not available.

If the Criminal Code is amended and the BAC lowered to 0.05%, even more people will be pulled over under Criminal Code provisions, rather than under the highway safety code. It is unfortunate that Quebec has not followed the lead of the other provinces. However, surely it will conform one day, since the other provinces and territories have already implemented these measures. Therefore, pursuant to the highway safety code, the BAC limit is 0.05%. The code also sets out penalties of three days, one week and even up to two weeks, rather than four- or twelve- hour license suspensions. Criminal Code provisions apply to those found to have a BAC equal to or over 0.08%.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

May I ask one last question?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Réal Ménard]

Go ahead.