Evidence of meeting #14 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Melissa Tkachyk  Programs Officer, , World Society for the Protection of Animals (Canada)
Karen Markham  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Go ahead.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

The problem is that your bill is not a government bill. As you well know, our system does not give priority to a component of a private member's bill. If it were done for you, it would have to be done for others as well. You should bear that in mind.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

I understand the problem, but...

I still am saying—and I think that every animal welfare group in the country is saying the same thing—that it just doesn't advance it enough.

What we're going to be left with is something that entrenches the problems, that leaves the people on the front lines of dealing with animal abuse frustrated. We're going to see no meaningful improvement, and unfortunately it will be held out as a placebo, not by the people who legitimately want to do something about this but by others. And what we're going to be left with next Parliament, if I'm fortunate enough to be back, is fighting to introduce something and people saying that we've already dealt with it.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Ménard.

Mr. Comartin.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I was going to start with a statement just to refute both the questions we've had from the Liberals and the Bloc. I understand the politics of this. I'm just surprised that we're not getting the same kind of response from both of them.

I want to pursue, to some degree, the line of questions from Mr. Ménard.

Ms. Tkachyk, have you taken on any consultation with the current government of trying to prioritize the old Bill C-50, Bill C-373? Have you had any indication from them of a willingness to prioritize it, to move it up? Because you know, I'm sure, of the difficulty and how long it will take Mr. Holland's bill to get to the top of the list.

3:55 p.m.

Programs Officer, , World Society for the Protection of Animals (Canada)

Melissa Tkachyk

Specifically on Bill C-50, I have not. But certainly as a campaigner I've had tremendous experience in trying to push things forward, and when something is tweaked a bit, it is extremely difficult, in my experience, to make further changes to it afterwards.

As well, I am concerned about the public perception. I do agree with Mr. Holland that this entrenches a problem, but it's also about the public perception when a government deals with something. I don't think it's a far stretch to say that the government would put out a press release and the groups that support Bill S-203 would put out press releases, and none of those would mention that this bill has deficiencies that need to be addressed urgently.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

What I'm really asking you is, since this Conservative government has been in place, has there been any consultation with you or any of the other groups that you're associated with of trying to move forward the old Bill C-50?

3:55 p.m.

Programs Officer, , World Society for the Protection of Animals (Canada)

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Okay.

We did have some suggestions of some amendments from the coalition of farmers and producers that was here in front of us two weeks ago. There were a couple of amendments, and I'm trying to remember what they were. One was around the section in terms of killing and having some intent in that.

Is your organization willing to accept an amendment in that regard?

4 p.m.

Programs Officer, , World Society for the Protection of Animals (Canada)

Melissa Tkachyk

I'm not aware of the particular amendment they proposed, but—

4 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

It wasn't them proposing. We were proposing to them, and they responded affirmatively.

February 14th, 2008 / 4 p.m.

Programs Officer, , World Society for the Protection of Animals (Canada)

Melissa Tkachyk

I see.

I would have to see the amendment. Going through the bills before us, I understand now the importance of every little word. So it would be important to review what that proposal is. I'm not aware of it.

4 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Ms. Markham, has the department done any analysis? We have conflicting evidence on the success rate of convictions. Has the department done any analysis of that?

4 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Karen Markham

It has not done an independent analysis recently. I think the department has relied upon statistics from the front line workers, and I believe that the Canadian Federation of Humane Societies has been very helpful in that regard.

4 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Are you aware of any draft legislation coming forward from the department that would, in effect, reintroduce the old Bill C-50?

4 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Karen Markham

I am not aware of any such initiative.

4 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

If there were that kind of draft legislation in the department, would you be aware of it?

4 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Karen Markham

I assume that I would be.

4 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Those are all the questions I have.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

Mr. Moore.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for their presentations.

Ms. Tkachyk, I have just one bit of a correction. You mentioned a government news release or something on this bill. To be clear, this Bill S-203 is not a government bill; it's a bill coming forward from a member of the Senate. So the issue is do we as a committee support that Senate bill or not. It's certainly not part of anything that we as a government have put forward.

Ms. Markham, on your understanding of the bill, am I correct that if an individual has committed an act of cruelty towards an animal and is arrested, tried, and convicted for an act of cruelty towards an animal, the bill that Senator Bryden has put forward would mean that the sentencing judge would have a higher penalty to impose on the convicted person? Is that your understanding of the bill?

4 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Karen Markham

Yes. Actually, the increased penalties and characterizing the offences as hybrid have two impacts. One, it allows for a crown election to proceed either summarily or by indictment, which in turn triggers an election by the accused if the crown proceeds by indictment. So it has that impact. Second, if the accused is convicted, the accused would be subject to higher penalties than is currently the case.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Good. That brings me to—

4 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

The only concern I have—