Justice Committee on March 4th, 2008

[Judith Bellis]

I'm not in a position to debate it here, Mr. Comartin. I know there are members of both the family and the criminal bar who have said it would be a good thing to have more. I also wonder, when the criminal bar is talking about an Askov situation, given that 98% of criminal matters are in fact dealt with at the provincial court level, not at the superior court level...it would seem to me it's more likely that is where the pressure is coming from. But I cannot absolutely specify.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

With respect to the consultations, I should indicate to you that while it's not formal in the sense that we've set out to get this input, we do get the input. When I have met with the Canadian Bar Association and other groups that are involved with the administration of justice or with the bar, they've been very clear to me that they would like to see something like this.

I can tell you that as recently as four o'clock yesterday, 24 hours ago, the Attorney General for Ontario made the point to me that he was pleased to see we were moving ahead with increasing the number of judicial components with this particular bill.

I get input all the time on this, Mr. Comartin. So as I say, I don't think there's any group that will say they're not.... I haven't run into anybody yet who is against us increasing the size of the bench across the country, but--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's not the issue, Mr. Minister. It's whether you've gone far enough, and that includes us. We clearly accept the fact of the need for additional appointments. I just have serious doubts as to whether this is going to be sufficient, because we're really only talking about 14 additional positions across the whole of the country.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

At considerable expensive, I have to tell you that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Right now I'm putting you on the spot to some degree here. Is there a difference between what you're hearing from the judicial councils? I'm hearing that they want more than this number but that the provinces are simply not in a position financially to be able to meet those additional demands.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's a delicate balance that we always--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Am I unfair in characterizing it in that way, that this is where the conflict would be?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I don't think there is a conflict. I've received good feedback. Let's face it, depending on where you are in the system, you always want more. If I said there's a million dollars for something, there's no shortage of people who would say, well, it should be $2 million, and if it's $2 million, it should be $4 million. If I say 20 judges, there are those who will say, well, maybe it could be 30. And I have no doubt if I said 30, there could be 40.

All I'm saying is that in our consultations with various provinces in terms of the resources that will be necessary and the case that is being made across this country for additional judicial appointments, I think this is a reasonable response.

Just so you know, Mr. Comartin, one of the suggestions that was talked about was to come forward with just the six positions we need for the specific claims tribunal and that would be a reasonable bill. I bet it would probably have support here. I was among those who said this is also an opportunity to increase the component and let's boost this up, and as you see, we have 20 before you.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

You have time for one more question.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

On two quick statistics, just to set this in context, did I hear you correctly say the last time the pool was increased was 35 years ago?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

In the early seventies, I believe.

[Judith Bellis]

Yes, other than the unified family court pool.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Which we've now lost. I guess I really have three. We've lost the 27 family court judges who have now been rolled in. Is that correct?

[Judith Bellis]

They've been appointed.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Yes, but they're rolled into the numbers. Or am I wrong on that?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Not the pool of the 30. The 30--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

They're not in the pool, are they?

[Judith Bellis]

No, there are no judges left.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Overall, how many judges do we have at the superior court level, including the appeals level across the country?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Right across Canada altogether?

[Judith Bellis]

It's in the range of 1,100, including supernumeraries.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

And has that been increased by the provincial legislatures increasing that number in the last while?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

They wouldn't increase the superior court, because they're only appointed by ours, but they, of course, appoint their own at the provincial level.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay, they've already done it there.

Thank you.