Justice Committee on March 4th, 2008

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Minister, I would like to discuss two extremely important points with you. I would like to talk about the reconciliation commission in a few minutes. In the notes that the department provided to us, it says the following:

This infusion of new judicial resources is intended to provide the courts with the capacity to allow a number of their experienced judges to be appointed on a part-time basis to a tribunal roster of up to 18 judges.

The first important expression is “experienced judges”, the second being “on a part-time basis”, the tribunal being the tribunal for specific claims.

This is not in fact what the first nations want. These people do not want a judge to tell them that he has only four months to give them. Mr. Minister, I imagine you have a great deal of experience. Moreover, your colleagues have looked at this issue. I myself am studying the matter. We know that it takes three or four years to arrive at an agreement.

I would like to know if we will have judges on a part-time basis, both at the Superior Court as well as at the Specific Claims Tribunal, or whether judges will sit on the Specific Claims Tribunal until the end of their mandate following which they will return to be judges at the Superior Court. Do you understand the difference?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's a very good point, Monsieur Lemay, and I'd want to be clear about that. The individual who would take on that responsibility would complete that responsibility. They wouldn't say, “I'm only doing this for four months of the year and therefore you're out of luck”. I think that's actually part of our problem with the resources we have available. Some judges or some individuals can't commit that kind of time.

This is precisely meant to address that. If, let's say, in a province there was one allocation of the one of the six, it would allow the chief justice, for instance, in the example given by the Department of Justice, to appoint three individuals who could sit. Once that individual is seized with the issue, they're seized with that case and they would complete that case. What we're saying is, in the regime we are putting in place we're not having one individual who will sit forever and just deal with specific claims. We're having superior court judges who, when they're seized with it, they're seized with it, but nonetheless they can then go back at some point. And as you quite correctly point out, just like trials today, they can take one day or they can take one year, but the person has to complete that.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much. That clarification is very interesting. I will share it with the first nations' representatives who will be appearing before us again, and who asked me that question.

As for the reconciliation commission that your colleague Mr. Strahl wants to set up, I find that a most interesting idea. I would like to know what amendment you might be bringing forward for Bill C-31. I think that your colleagues have brought some pressure to bear in this regard, but I am going to add a little more by asking you if you are in a position to move this amendment quickly, given the importance this has and will have for the first nations' truth and reconciliation commission.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think you've made a very good point.

What I propose I think can only be done at the report stage. I would be looking for an increase of one individual. The truth and reconciliation commission, as you know, will take up to five years. It would cause an intolerable strain on a court to have one of its individuals taken for five years and not have a replacement. That's what we are trying to address.

Because of your interest, as soon as we have that amendment, I will certainly inform you. I will attempt to do that at the report stage, when this gets back before Parliament. Again, we are accommodating an individual, who has the support of everyone, but we will try to be fair to the court in question so that it will not be unduly strained by having an individual gone for five years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Mr. Chair, I want to ask questions to the minister.

It always seems that we're talking about justice. When a couple of Niagara MPs get in the room, things seem to happen. I'm sure all members would agree.

I'm not hearing any unanimity there.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'll second that, Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you very much, Minister.

One of the questions I have is from the overview. It talks about the two purposes you outlined for the act and also the creation of the authority to appoint 20 new judges to the provincial superior trial courts. Then it talks a bit further, that not 20 but 18 judges will be appointed as tribunal members by the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Minister of Justice. I wonder why there were 20 at the beginning and then only 18 would be appointed as Governor in Council--

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It is really to address two matters. One of them is the tribunal. For instance, if I take the example of New Brunswick—it doesn't matter which province—let's say the province was getting one extra judge to accommodate the specific claims tribunal. We would expect the chief justice would then make recommendations to have three superior court judges available. It's not just one person on a permanent basis; you would have three. We would have that in whichever province or territory.

We are asking for a designation of more than that because the individual may not be available. It sounds a little confusing with the 20. There are six places for the claims tribunal. The other 14 are superior court judges, who we are appointing. It has nothing to do with the six, except that in a province, for instance, you might get two judges. You might get one to assist on the trials. You have the resources, but those resources we expect would be spread among three. It's three to one. That's where you get the 18.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

All right.

A little further in the act it talks about purpose. You've kind of outlined the 14 and the six and the two group responsibilities.

We also talked about the fact that they would deal with approximately 40 cases a year. I wonder if you or the officials could point out what the 20 appointments will do to the backlog. Are we going to reach a point that it will actually catch up and we will be in a much more reasonable position with respect to the amount of time individuals have to wait?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

As you can see, I have one component of this whole question on the tribunals. I have to tell you, Mr. Dykstra, you'd be better off posing that to Indian Affairs and Northern Development. They actually have the lead on this, so for any estimates as to the length of time for each case or how many might be expedited, and even the backlog, they would be in a better position than I am to answer. My component of this is to get more judges so they will be available to deal with this challenge.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Dykstra.

Do you have a question, Mr. Murphy?

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

One brief question we had on this side was whether any of the expected appointments are necessary due to the flood of litigation expected in the area of defamation and libel coming out of the House of Commons.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Are you intending or do you know of any individuals who are intending to commit that kind of...? Sometimes it's very difficult to estimate in advance.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

There's going to be a flood of cases.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I always tell people to be very, very careful in their words and actions.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I was just asking the question, Minister.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I understand there is pressure right across this country for superior court judges to deal with a wide range of issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

Next on our agenda is clause-by-clause.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I have other questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

You may ask your question.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

How are the existing 30 members in the pool apportioned across the provinces?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's a very good question.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I think you said the 14 appointments that will be going across the country have not been determined yet. The second question is, does the federal government have a position as to how they will be apportioned?