Evidence of meeting #14 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was organizations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Deputy Chief Prosecutor of Criminal and Penal Prosecutions, Organized Crime Prosecutions Bureau, Department of Justice (Quebec)
We do when we want them to be convicted for gangsterism.
If Bill C-14 were passed and we wanted to use the provision under which a murder committed by a criminal organization is automatically first-degree, we would have to prove that the group in question is a criminal organization. That takes a long time to prove.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
You saw me coming.
How long does it take to make that case in a murder trial. For example, in the spring of 2001, how long, how many days, did it take you? Could it have been three quarters of the total duration of the trial?
Deputy Chief Prosecutor of Criminal and Penal Prosecutions, Organized Crime Prosecutions Bureau, Department of Justice (Quebec)
I would say it would be perhaps half the time. In a long trial with a number of accused, it can mean several months. It depends on the evidence available. Sometimes, we are lucky enough to have a witness from inside the organization who will say it quite quickly. But that witness can also be cross-examined...
Deputy Chief Prosecutor of Criminal and Penal Prosecutions, Organized Crime Prosecutions Bureau, Department of Justice (Quebec)
... and that can take two weeks.
Deputy Chief Prosecutor of Criminal and Penal Prosecutions, Organized Crime Prosecutions Bureau, Department of Justice (Quebec)
After that, we have to support that testimony by backing it up with other facts. So we have to find more evidence.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Okay.
You are suggesting that we should use the example of the Anti-terrorism Act to come up with a section that would allow for an automatic declaration. I understand that.
I have questions for Mr. Latulippe and Mr. Brabant.
This is all driven by money. If you can trace the money back, where do you lose track of it these days? What is the biggest problem in finding out that the money that has gone into a crane company, for example, is dirty? I will not go into more detail. Is the question specific enough? Where do you lose track of the money? What is the problem?
Co-Chair, Organized Crime Committee and Chief Inspector, Sûreté du Québec, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
In most industries where businesses are taken over by criminals, we lose track of the dirty money quickly, for various reasons.
First, they often use dummy companies. So we have to deconstruct them, get past them and that is a complicated case to make. And when huge amounts of dirty money are involved, these people are able to get a share of the market very quickly and generate profits.
Take any construction company as an example. They put in a very competitive bid, because their intention at the time is not to make a profit, but to launder money. Their bid is unbeatable. So they win most of the contracts on offer; other companies go out of business, and their company makes bigger profits.
We very quickly lose what we call the “window of opportunity“ to prove that money is being recycled. The “window“ is open for a very short time: a few months, less than a year.
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Forgive me for interrupting you, but this is important.
How can we as lawmakers help you use that little “window“ better? What exactly do you need? Should we amend a clause? Where is the problem?
Co-Chair, Organized Crime Committee and Chief Inspector, Sûreté du Québec, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
The Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act has given Canada a framework, a solid basis for establishing rules on recycling money. But once the first “window of opportunity“ for recycling has closed, we find what we call second, third and fourth generation recycling. The only remaining common thread is made up of the facilitators, the lawyers, the notaries, the accountants, the tax experts who know that they are dealing with criminals who have no legitimate income, who have never been to school, but hold huge company portfolios. Those are the people who do the transactions.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
My question goes to Mr. Jocelyn Latulippe.
You brought up something else. I imagine that you are familiar with the bill, because you say that, while it is not revolutionary, it is a step in the right direction. You mentioned something very specific: that organized crime infiltrates into the legitimate economy. We are aware of that already. If you were as old as I am, you would know that the Cliche Commission found organized crime in the FTQ-Construction. That was who was involved. Exactly 34 years ago, a group of people sat on that commission, including a prime minister of Canada. They declared that organized crime had infiltrated into the construction industry unions, and so on.
Mr. Lemay talked to you just now about cranes and the like. At provincial and federal levels, governments are soon going to be providing $42 billion over five years for construction projects. People smell money. One investigation has already found that organized crime has infiltrated into certain areas. I go back to what Mr. Richmond said. Would you be ready to state that the FTQ-Construction could pose a problem? That is what all the journalists tell us. Would you be ready to go that far to stop the spread of organized crime? I am just following up on Mr. Lemay's question, since that is what he seems to be saying, in a way.
Co-Chair, Organized Crime Committee and Chief Inspector, Sûreté du Québec, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
It is true that organized crime infiltrating into the legitimate economy is not a new phenomenon. Well before my father's time, or the time of people around this table, organized crime had already taken over construction companies, ice cream manufacturers and all kinds of other businesses. It is just that it is all about profits at the moment. There is a staggering amount of money to be made, and economic times are tough. So of course there are risks. Investigations are under way at the moment. I do not want my testimony to give the impression that only one sector is involved. You are going to become aware of a number of things in the months ahead. Other sectors are being investigated, not just construction. I do not want to talk about injections of money, or any kind of link with any organization or union. Rather, I feel that it is important to bear in mind that our planned investigations show that the facilitators have their eyes on all these areas at the moment. There are more and more of them, and it is more and more difficult, not to say impossible, to fight sophisticated people who know their areas well. They are well educated; they have used state support to acquire their knowledge. They are now supporting organized crime and there is nothing in our present legislation that can touch them and their recycling.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Does the bill before you, the one that you have made yourself familiar with, address the needs that you have expressed, albeit partially? If it does not make you feel perfectly well, do you feel a little better?
Co-Chair, Organized Crime Committee and Chief Inspector, Sûreté du Québec, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
We feel better: maybe very good. We think that, with some amendments that would increase the penalties for offences dealing with organized crime, violence and the use of firearms, Canadian values for a safe and peaceful society will be better supported.
At the far end, the violent crime, we will be very well served. But the object of my testimony was to remind you that organized crime is now looking to spread in another direction. We are going to have the evidence of that in the months to come because of the procedures and processes that have been put into place. The goal is never again to have to deal with dirty activities or operations on the ground.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Thank you.
I think the Liberals are passing, so we'll move on to Monsieur Lemay for three minutes.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am going to keep going, Mr. Latulippe, because I think it is important. I gather that you were almost about to tell us that, possibly, we were dealing with a trade secret. I see from your smile that I am not far from the truth.
When I was president of the bar in my area, we required all our colleagues to declare whenever a client made a transaction with more than $100,000 in cash. We are federal lawmakers and we are going to have to make changes to the Criminal Code. How do you see that? Amending the Criminal Code can take years. How urgent is it to open up that little window?
Co-Chair, Organized Crime Committee and Chief Inspector, Sûreté du Québec, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
The first thing to do would be to send a clear message to the people who are facilitating the financial actions taken and the inroads made by organized crime, because that is undermining the country's economy and free enterprise. The first step in that direction is to establish penalties for people aiding criminal organizations.
As for the next stages, we just think that you have to consult all the organizations and police services involved in order to come up with solutions. When the time comes, we will be able to make proposals. Basically, we are bringing this up to say that you have to quickly come to grips with the matter and the things you can do about it.
I do not want to start talking about the things we are considering right now. But, when the time is right, we will have suggestions.