Justice Committee on April 30th, 2009

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

What does that mean?

What do you mean when you say that? What kind of amendment would you like to see?

[Insp Gary Shinkaruk]

Within section 467 there are wiretap provisions. That also falls under part 6. When we go for an extensive wiretap and there's a simple change in it--let's say, for instance, we have five people named, and a sixth person comes into the offence--currently in Canada we have to rewrite the wiretap. It is extremely labour-intensive. We have to update the judge on everything that has happened since he last issued it. Often the whole spirit of the wiretap has not changed, but it can take literally months to do. It becomes extremely ineffective.

I've just talked to the people in Quebec. What they tried to do a couple of years ago, although it hasn't been tested at the Supreme Court level, was simply an amendment. They said they were bringing this other person in for these reasons; it was a two- or three-page amendment, and then they just said that the spirit of everything in the wiretap the judge had agreed to remained the same. They were able to do that very effectively.

That was on Project Colisée a couple of years ago, when they tackled organized crime. When they were able to do that, it kept the momentum and flow of the investigation focused. If you do it other ways, it just really stalls the investigation, and what would take four months literally ends up taking eight or nine months.

Other things we would look at doing include some sort of registration or acceptance if you're named a criminal organization by a number of supreme courts. In this case, the Hells Angels is a criminal organization. Accept the fact that they're a criminal--

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

That's what I was suggesting.

[Insp Gary Shinkaruk]

I agree wholeheartedly that they're a criminal organization in Canada. There's nothing that prevents you from being a member of a criminal organization in Canada, and that's counterproductive. That's where we need to go.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Very good.

Do I have time for another question?

You can count on us to try as much as possible to have a list. Obviously, there must be guideposts, but we have very precise ideas in that area.

In Quebec, 156 people were arrested. Of that number, 111 were Hells Angels. Obviously, the investigation lasted two and a half years. When I try to understand the difference between your situation here and what we have in Quebec, the impression I get is that street gangs appear to be more important than criminal biker gangs in the overall picture of organized crime. Am I mistaken? What prevents you from making this type of arrest within street gangs? Mr. MacIntyre stated in his presentation that the groups no longer identify themselves, that they no longer have tattoos. It is perhaps more difficult, but what is preventing you from putting street gang members behind bars?

[Supt Doug Kiloh]

Thank you.

In part you talked about a two-and-a-half-year investigation and 156 people being arrested as a result. You asked what is preventing British Columbia from doing that, and whether our focus is more on the street gangs.

No. I think we have to continue to go after the whole spectrum. Our difficulty here, as Inspector Shinkaruk identified, is that we will not get acceptance for prosecution in a mega-trial of over five or six accused on one specific indictment. The bureaucracy tied to the courts in British Columbia is incredible. We cannot move that ahead.

He spoke of our warrants. Quebec did an amendment, a simple amendment; we have to produce thousands of pages to get that in, and it is a task. It is one law in this country, but it's not applied as one law in this country.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Does that mean that they cannot hold mega-trials?

I understand.

[Supt Doug Kiloh]

Mega-trials are extremely expensive and extremely difficult for the level of prosecution support we have here and in the way the British Columbia courts have dealt with them. It is very difficult for us at this particular time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Comartin, for about five minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

I'm going to be a devil's advocate at this point and raise three points with you. I'd ask any one of you to respond. I'll call them accusations against the criminal justice system in this province.

The first comes, I think, directly from the professional police association. It is that you are understaffed in terms of the number of police officers you have in ratio to the population.

The second comes back to the point that has already been raised. It is that your rate of integrative approach at the command level is the most backward in the country.

The third just broke this week. It is about your technology, your computers. Superintendent MacRae, I imagine you'll probably respond to this. You have two systems, and then you have the municipal systems that aren't interactive, so your technology lags behind most of the rest of the country.

Finally, the point has just been raised that at both your prosecutorial level and your judicial level, you seem to be applying federal evidentiary standards and the Criminal Code in a way that is significantly different from what occurs elsewhere in the country, and negatively so in terms of the protection of the public.

You only have about three and a half minutes to respond to that.

[C/Supt Fraser MacRae]

If I might, sir, I'll speak to the easiest one first, the computer systems or information systems. I'm a little confused there, because actually I think we're the only province in the country that has a common reference management system through PRIME and Versadex. I can talk in my police car and access records of the Vancouver Police Department in real time. So I'm not sure exactly what--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

There was a story out this week with an accusation from, I think, one of the former RCMP police officers that in fact you have two systems and they aren't interactive.

[A/Commr Al MacIntyre]

Can I comment?

In fact, they are interactive, through LEIP, the law enforcement information portal. British Columbia is the only province in Canada, and in fact the only state in North America, that has all police agencies on one records management system. That came about as a result of actions after 9/11.

I think the issue was that in the RCMP force itself we have two RMSs, PRIME in British Columbia and PROS in the rest of Canada. The fact of the matter is that PRIME and PROS are interoperable. Unfortunately, it's through a portal. In an ideal world, all of Canada should be on one records management system for all police and all law enforcement. That's a perfect world, but it's a very expensive world.

In British Columbia, having all police departments and all law enforcement services on one records management system is the envy of a lot of states and provinces, and we have a lot of visitors come to see it. Perhaps it was the way it was reported, but we don't see it as a bad news story here in British Columbia; PRIME is a best practice.

[Insp Brad Desmarais]

I would like to support what the commissioner said. PRIME is actually a very robust records management system. One of its key features is the ability to analyze the information in the system in a manner that allows us, as police managers, to deploy it immediately into the field and to deploy police resources into areas where they're required.

Second, as the assistant commissioner mentioned, it is absolutely invaluable for me to be able to sit at my desk or in my police car and run a piece of property or a criminal event that is unfolding before me and see what criminal events are unfolding elsewhere in the immediate area. That is absolutely critical. I don't believe that exists anywhere else in the country.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

What about the number of police officers per population base?

[Insp Bob Stewart]

From the Vancouver perspective, we always put it out there that we're understaffed. I think that's maybe from a per capita perspective, but it's also from the fact that we're the hub of the Lower Mainland and the entertainment district. That's where the people from all the outside areas come to play. We're definitely understaffed for policing resources in that sense--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Have you done a comparison with other major municipalities in the country?

[Insp Bob Stewart]

I don't have those numbers in front of me, but maybe someone else here would know about the number of officers per capita in--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It's among the lowest in the country.

[Insp Bob Stewart]

I wouldn't be surprised, but I know our caseload in Vancouver is one of the highest in the country, and that's for sure.

[Supt Doug Kiloh]

I have one comment with respect to resources. I don't think there's a police officer, a regulatory body, or a law enforcement body anywhere that wouldn't want more people. Having said that, I think that if we modernize the Criminal Code and the disclosure laws, we could probably put 30% more police officers on the street as a result.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You're not going to get any argument from me. I've been telling the government since I've been the critic about the need for reform in the Criminal Code and the Canada Evidence Act, and how outdated they are. We've got that code sitting there, and if you did the reform, you could cut that book in half and still get the same result. That's no problem, but--

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you. You're out of time. I'm sorry about that.

We'll move on to Ms. Grewal. You have five minutes.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all of you for taking the time to come in. Thank you so much for your presentations.

My question goes to Chief Superintendent Fraser MacRae.

Mr. MacRae, since coming to office, our government has pushed forward with a number of crime bills. We are successfully changing the law, looking to limit house arrest, increase punishment for gun crimes, and raise the age of consent, among other things. We have now introduced further legislation dealing with organized crime, auto theft, two-for-one sentencing, identity theft, and drug crimes. In addition, we have put more women into law enforcement in allowing for 1,000 new RCMP officers. While there is much more to be done, we are taking one step at a time and we will do more in the future.

My question to you is this: do you believe that the changes that have been implemented will assist law enforcement agencies and help to keep criminals off our streets? Could you please elaborate a bit, with specific reference to the situation in Surrey?

[C/Supt Fraser MacRae]

Assistant Commissioner Macintyre made reference to the additional resources through the PORF funding. I think that is a tremendous good news story for policing. The funds allow for the enhancement of resources, not only in the Greater Vancouver area but around the province, so that's all good news for us.

The other parts of your question, if I understand correctly, were related to the recent announcements regarding the proposed legislation. As I indicated in my remarks, I feel that for certain types and profiles of criminals, there needs to be more significant custodial consequence as a result upon conviction. I would say that.

In relation to the situation in Surrey, as you well know, Surrey is a very dynamic community that is very quickly growing, with over 1,000 new residents moving there per month. It has the highest percentage of youth in its population in the province. It has the largest school district in the province.

I think one of the things we're most excited about recently in Surrey goes to my fourth point in terms of education and prevention. It's the new initiative we've adopted with the integrated gang task force and the Surrey school district. It's called the Surrey wrap program. I'm sure you're aware of it.

We put students from the school district between the ages of 12 and 17 through a risk assessment tool that has been developed and is defendable. We take the top 60 who go through that threat assessment protocol and pair them up with a school counsellor and a police officer. These people are on the cusp of gang activity or already in its grasp, and they are individually case-managed with a view of taking them forward in a positive fashion and giving them the kind of substantial foundation they need to be productive members of society.