Evidence of meeting #17 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was drugs.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Neil Boyd  Professor of Criminology, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Robert Gordon  Professor and Director, School of Criminology, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Wai Young  Coordinator, Vancouver Citizens Against Crime
Evelyn Humphreys  Project Manager, A Chance to Choose, S.U.C.C.E.S.S.
Michelle Miller  Executive Director, Resist Exploitation, Embrace Dignity (REED)
Bud the Oracle  As an Individual
Robin Wroe  Registrar, Unincorporated Deuteronomical Society
Commissioner Al Macintyre  Criminal Operations Officer, Province of British Columbia, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Doug Kiloh  Chief Officer, Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Gary Shinkaruk  Officer in Charge, Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Enforcement, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Superintendent Fraser MacRae  Officer in Charge, Surrey Detachment, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Bob Stewart  Inspector in Charge, Criminal Intelligence Section, Vancouver Police Department
Brad Desmarais  Inspector in Charge, Gangs and Drugs Section, Vancouver Police Department
Roland Wallis  Court Certified Drug Expert and Clandestine Lab Instructor, General Duty Police Officer and Senior Patrol Non-Commissioned Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Matt Logan  Retired Royal Canadian Mounted Police Operational Psychologist, Behavioural Science Group in Major Crime, As an Individual

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Okay. You may want to take a look at that study.

Ms. Humphreys, with reference to the funding from the federal government, Public Safety Canada has been spending less than it was allotted in our last budget. They have spent only about 60% of it. One of the concerns I have is the mandate they have. The agencies have to show that they will be able to prove that they have reduced crime. Is there any comment?

I'm cross-examining you here and giving you a leading question, but my sense, my observation, is that a social service agency is incapable of doing that. Do you have any comment?

10:35 a.m.

Project Manager, A Chance to Choose, S.U.C.C.E.S.S.

Evelyn Humphreys

I think we can prove that we've reduced crime.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

No, but you have to do it in advance.

10:35 a.m.

Project Manager, A Chance to Choose, S.U.C.C.E.S.S.

Evelyn Humphreys

Oh, it has to be in advance.

We can't do it in advance, but we can look at our stats. We have four years of statistics that can prove we can, so we can now go back. We have a history and we can actually prove we can. If we were going to propose in the future, we can look at our past and we can project.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Saxton.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

My question is for Mr. Boyd.

Mr. Boyd, you have indicated that you are against, or you're not in favour of, mandatory minimum sentences. Is that correct?

10:35 a.m.

Prof. Neil Boyd

It's correct in the realm of drugs; it's not correct with homicide. I'm in favour of the mandatory minimums that exist with respect to first degree and second degree murder.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Okay. Is it correct that you're not in favour of it with respect to drugs because you do not feel it is an effective deterrent?

10:35 a.m.

Prof. Neil Boyd

That's only part of the picture. I'm also not in favour of treating the drug problem as a criminal law problem of morality. It's appropriate to treat drunk driving, homicide, assault, sexual assault, or any number of offences as criminal offences deserving of prohibition and deserving of penalty. If I put smoking marijuana, drinking alcohol, and smoking tobacco alongside each other, I'd say the one that's most likely to kill you, the one that's going to be the most damaging, is probably tobacco. You wouldn't want to have official powers to encourage any of those activities, but we're using a sledgehammer, the criminal law, to control a problem that might be best dealt with through other means.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Okay. Well, neither of us is a doctor, so we don't have the expertise.

10:35 a.m.

Prof. Neil Boyd

You don't turn to doctors to solve this problem; you turn to the best available evidence. You can read the best available evidence as much as I can, and you can determine what the relative odds are. If we do turn to doctors, if we do turn to the Canadian Medical Association, they'll tell you again and again that in terms of any list of dangerous drugs, cannabis ranks somewhere around caffeine. Right at the top are alcohol, cocaine, and heroin.

What I'm saying is that what we're doing isn't really rational. We shouldn't try to pretend that the drugs that are illegal are somehow morally tainted and more deserving of censure than drugs like alcohol and tobacco. I just can't support that claim. It doesn't make any sense.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

You do not agree that marijuana is a currency for...?

10:40 a.m.

Prof. Neil Boyd

It is in some circumstances, and I agree with the minister that where it is, the law should respond accordingly. If adults are growing marijuana for their own use or using small amounts of marijuana, that ought not to be subject to criminal penalty.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Okay, but you're making a distinction between personal use and trafficking.

10:40 a.m.

Prof. Neil Boyd

Yes. As I've said earlier, globally we're not in a position to have a regulation of cannabis. It's just not a realistic possibility. I wouldn't suggest to any justice minister that legalization or any form of even regulation in the same way that we regulate alcohol be considered until there's a global kind of resolution.

There are other things we can do to respond more effectively, and some of what your government has put forward in this bill makes some sense around specific issues of harm—the booby traps, children in the house, the residue, those kinds of concerns. But the cultivation or the use of marijuana itself by adults I don't think is an appropriate framework or context in which to use the criminal law.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

We have one more question from the government side. Let me just follow up, if I may.

One thing that hasn't been discussed here is public safety, protecting the public in the case of drugs. Let's exclude cannabis for a moment and talk about some of the more serious drugs—heroin, crystal meth, etc. Many of the people who are selling drugs are repeat offenders. They do this time and time again. It doesn't matter that you arrest them and put them in jail; they keep on committing these crimes. It seems illogical to argue against the reality that if you take these repeat offenders out of society for longer periods of time, at least during the time of their incarceration, whether that's two years or three or five or ten years, they will not be committing those offences. The longer the period of incarceration, the more time they have to get some help for their problem.

Or am I off base?

10:40 a.m.

Prof. Neil Boyd

I think so. I mean, you're not off base; I understand that this is a suggestion people often make. But I don't think it's very productive. I think it's a very expensive suggestion, and we could deal with the problem in other ways.

If you're a heroin addict and you're stealing.... Look at the NAOMI project that Martin Schechter and his colleagues at UBC conducted for three years. They found significant improvement in the psychological and economic functioning of the participants when they were prescribed heroin. These weren't people who were just randomly given heroin; these were intractable addicts who had failed at methadone, who had failed at virtually every conceivable possibility. In fact, there were so many restrictions in the program that it was difficult to get people involved, but what the program revealed was that there is a different and a better way of responding to heroin addiction than using the criminal law.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you so much to all of you for appearing. Your testimony has been very helpful.

To those of you who have written submissions, please deliver them to the clerk. We'll make sure they are distributed to our members.

Again, thank you. We will suspend for five minutes.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I'm going to start the meeting right now.

Gary Shinkaruk, are you ready to present, or will it be Al Macintyre?

10:50 a.m.

Assistant Commissioner Al Macintyre Criminal Operations Officer, Province of British Columbia, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Good day. Bonjour. My name is Alistair Macintyre. I'm the officer responsible for oversight of all RCMP criminal operations in British Columbia.

Violence characterizes the nature of organized crime in British Columbia. In 2008, 40%--or 55--of the province's 138 murders were organized crime and gang related. The costs are staggering.

The prevalence of violent crime, up to and including murder, occurring as a consequence of organized criminal activity is a major public concern. The people are scared. While British Columbia homicide rates are stable, the proportion of those attributed to organized crime is increasing. There's also evidence suggesting that the number of non-fatal shootings has increased, perhaps because of the increased gangster use of body and vehicle armour.

It is estimated that there are approximately 133 organized crime groups in British Columbia. While the estimated number of groups seems to have remained stable over the past four years, the exact number of individuals involved is yet unknown and difficult to accurately predict.

Organized crime and gangs have multi-jurisdictional connections. In addition to their drug trafficking practices, which are national and international, they hire shooters from other jurisdictions, which thwarts homicide investigations.

While organized crime groups and gangs were at one time characterized by their ethnic origin, there are growing trends towards emerging polyethnic groups organized around a criminal market. Their structures are flexible, their skills diverse and sophisticated, while their knowledge about how to defeat the criminal laws is escalating. Emerging groups are also less inclined than their predecessors to blatantly display the trappings or signs of their branding, as more traditional gangs like the Hells Angels would, such as using a name, tattoos, clothing, and jewellery as identifiers. This makes prosecution under organized crime laws more difficult.

The examples of Project EPARAGON typify the gangster groups, those who import and export multi-kilograms of cocaine and other drugs and launder millions of dollars of their proceeds of crime, often at casinos. These groups import precursors, manufacture illicit drugs, then export the products to a different country. They also import cocaine from Los Angeles, then export the same drugs to Australia to maximize profit.

Organized crime is becoming more sophisticated, as seen in their use of technology, and there has been a noted trend for them to relocate production facilities to rural areas to avoid detection by law enforcement. Gangs and organized crime are showing a strong presence in Prince George and Kelowna, as evidenced by the Hells Angels' establishing chapters in these two major centres, as well as by Red Scorpions' and Independent Soldiers' presence in Kelowna, as confirmed by a recent shooting.

Other outlying areas in British Columbia, such as Fort St. John, have also reported increases in gang-related violence, frequency, and intensity. The Lower Mainland of British Columbia has recently experienced an increase in gang violence that has previously been described as a “spike in violence”, a “crisis”, and a “public security threat”. It has attracted considerable media attention, and there is increased public concern over the violence and the fact that the recent high-profile incidents have occurred in public places, particularly shopping mall parking lots.

The violence is not restricted to a particular community within the Lower Mainland, but has been witnessed in both Vancouver and the suburban cities. The jurisdictions in which this violence has occurred are policed by either RCMP contract detachments or stand-alone municipal departments. The overall police response is managed via the integrated gang task force or IGTF, the integrated homicide investigation team or IHIT, and the Vancouver homicide squad. Many other agencies routinely assist. The two integrated units are composed of police officers from many jurisdictions, but are led by the RCMP.

Organized crime in the Lower Mainland can best be described as a pyramid, with the street gangs at the low end and sophisticated international, multi-commodity Asian organized crime and outlaw motorcycle gangs at the apex. Typically, street gang enforcement is handled at the local level, and high-end organized crime is investigated by the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit, which you will hear from shortly.

The crime that has been of the greatest concern in recent days is that of the mid-band. The mid-band of organized crime is primarily focused on the drug offences and is very territorial. Gangs argue over territory, alliances are much less permanent today, and there's a fundamental lack of respect amongst these gangsters, both within their respective gangs and towards other gangs. This results from increased police enforcement and the issues of supply and demand.

There are also strong standing personal rivalries and jealousies amongst the gangsters. In recent months the Bacon brothers' gang has obtained wide news coverage. The Bacons have a family residence in Abbotsford and an apartment in Port Moody—I should say “had”. Those cities, with their own police departments, have become focal points for much media attention and the public advisories to avoid the Bacons and their associates. The Bacon brothers are associated with the Red Scorpions, who are in conflict with the United Nations Gang.

Although mid-level gang activity used to be ethnically based, it is now multi-ethnic, with family and school ties being secondary. The number of gangs in the mid-band has increased rapidly over the past few years due to the lucrative drug trade. It has become more violent due to the easy access to new and modified firearms from Asia and the United States.

A spate of recent murders and shootings in the Lower Mainland, i.e. 10 in 10 days, really raised public concern. Many of the shootings have occurred near a freeway, allowing for easy access and egress.

The gang task force and other units generally know the players in the gangs, yet procuring the necessary evidence in determining who in the gang was the shooter tends to be very difficult. Various legislative and legal obstacles make the investigation of these crimes more difficult and onerous. Search warrant and electronic eavesdropping requirements and pretrial disclosure tactics are prominent among these. I know you've heard much about that already.

The prevalence of modified armoured vehicles and gangsters wearing bulletproof vests increases the risk to police officers. Police concern has also been raised by homicides involving innocent victims: two within the Surrey six massacre of 2007, one in Richmond, and one in Burnaby.

The integrated homicide team had its busiest year last year, recording 57 homicides in its jurisdiction. This does not include the cities of Vancouver, West Vancouver, and Delta. The next highest year was 2005, when there were 48 homicides. The homicide rate in Greater Vancouver exceeds that of Toronto and other major urban cities.

Approximately 40% of IHIT's--that's the homicide team--homicide investigation relate to organized crime. Some are high-profile gangsters in the mid-band, but many are functionaries in the drug gangs, such as crack shack reloaders and dial-a-dope runners.

In an effort to stem the growth of gang violence, the Province of British Columbia announced a host of initiatives. The initiatives include the assignment of PORF--that is, the police officers recruitment funding--obtained from the federal government to fight against organized crime; taking provincial action through increased organized crime prosecutors; and civil forfeiture and seeking action from the federal government in terms of amendments to the Criminal Code respecting gun violence, crime paraphernalia, evidentiary obstacles to prosecution, and sentencing.

The gang task force and the integrated homicide investigation team and numerous other RCMP and municipal units are working very hard to stem the violence on the streets. Many initiatives have borne fruit over the past year, including a uniformed gang squad for the Lower Mainland and increased resources. The current level of killings is unprecedented, however, and is taxing the skilled resources required to conduct these investigations.

The trend in spiking gang violence continues today. The first three months of 2009 continues to show an increase in gang violence. Homicides in the region are forecast to exceed last year's record numbers if continued at the current pace. When they are forecast, we can multiply by four to get approximately the annual projection of 52 gang murders this year in the metro area, within the 136 of the total for the province.

In the 2009 provincial statistics to the first three months of this year, 13 homicide victims were from organized crime activity; 8 were without organized crime activity; and for 13, we're still trying to figure where they fit.

Through an intelligence-gathering process, police have identified and are now targeting the groups seen as being involved in the highest level of gang violence in the region. Some successes have been seen, and more will follow.

Most of the gang violence seen today in the Lower Mainland is directly linked to the control of drug lines. Some of the examples and patterns seen are retaliation for taking over a territory or street-level drug lines in the region; continual hunting behaviour of key gang members by rival gang members. This hunting is done with well-armed and experienced gang members, some of whom travel from other areas of the country. Other factors are internal conflict arising from the lack of profit being generated through the respective lines, the inability to pay debts, or the increased tax placed on individuals controlling drug lines for the various gangs by the upper-level gang members. This tax can come from the drug supply organized crime group as well.

There are also some ethnic-driven rivalries between gangs in some pockets of the region, and marijuana grow rips or other drug rips. Some known targets have made this behaviour their only source of income. They routinely carry rip kits made up of such things as firearms; body armour; balaclavas and bear spray; knives; conducted-energy weapon devices, or tasers; duct tape; and zap straps to conduct their activity.

Another aspect is lists of named individuals--contracted violence against those who gang members identify as interfering with their criminal activities, who may be killed in the near future.

The challenge that police face is often the sheer volume of gang activity that occurs in the region at any given point in time. There have been an estimated 600 confirmed incidents of shots fired in the Lower Mainland area of British Columbia since January 1, 2006. Each of these shots-fired complaints reflect a conflict that is the cause of the incident.

The police have been successful in investigating some gang activity. However, success has come at the cost of a significant drain in resources and time. All the while, other gang members flourish due to their rivals being targeted by the police.

Since 1995, well over 150 investigations have been identified that have involved a wide range of offences committed by organized criminal entities and/or gang members. These investigations have targeted, arrested, and charged members and associates of the Hells Angels, the United Nations Gang, the Red Scorpions, and the Independent Soldiers, as well as Asian, Indo-Canadian, Middle Eastern, Eastern European, Hispanic, and independent organized crime groups. Many have resulted in significant seizures of illegal commodities, specifically marijuana, cocaine, illicit synthetic drugs and the chemical precursors used to manufacture them, heroin, and firearms. In addition, several investigations have resulted in the seizure and restraint of cash and other monetary instruments, real property, or other articles deemed to have been derived from the proceeds of crime.

A comprehensive review of over 50 of those investigations resulted in identification of 153 persons who have successfully been prosecuted and convicted in British Columbia. An additional 120 persons are awaiting an upcoming trial, or indicted, convicted in foreign jurisdictions, primarily the U.S.A.

The integrated gang task force, the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit, the integrated homicide investigation team, and other numerous RCMP and municipal police units continue to work hard to stem the violence in the street. This collaborative and inclusive partnership will continue to result in investigative successes. Police anticipate a decrease in the levels of violence only after sustained pressure by law enforcement, prosecutor services, the judicial system, and community support. A failure of any one component will result in a collapse of the entire effort.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

Before we continue, could I ask which of you is actually presenting? Is each one of you presenting?

All right. Just remember, we have five minutes apiece. If we go over that, there'll be no time for questions. I'll think you'll find that the truly rewarding aspect of this is when we have a dialogue back and forth.

So please try to keep within the five minutes. If you can, focus in on what you're suggesting are some of the strategies that we, the federal government, could employ to actually address some of these challenges that we face.

Mr. Kiloh.

11:05 a.m.

Superintendent Doug Kiloh Chief Officer, Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Mr. Chair and everyone here, and a special thanks to Dona. We have a long and very important history that brings us here today.

My name is Doug Kiloh. I have over 30 years of experience in policing, and I'm presently in charge of the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit for British Columbia. There are some reinforcing themes here, but I'll try to pick up speed on them, Mr. Chair.

Law enforcement in British Columbia has responded to the increased violence exhibited by street and mid-level gangs, as well as continuing to investigate more complex organized crime targets in the province of British Columbia. As was said, we have over 130 criminal groups in various stages of development and activity. Over the last few years, the adaptation by and violence of some of those groups has required equally adaptive law and policing tactics.

For public safety, our adaptations have included the development of a uniform gang task force, which is right in their face, on the street, finding them where they're at, as well as focusing the larger investigative teams on the worst public safety threat we see. For example, I'm sure you'll hear of the following investigations from the panel in Vancouver: Projects Rebellion, EPARAGON, EPESETA, and EPACEMAN. They are some of the large investigations that have had a significant impact on gangs and organized crime.

Intelligence gathering and enforcement actions continue to target several high-ranking Middle Eastern, independent, outlaw motorcycle gang, and Asian organized crime groups and their associates. They're obviously involved in a myriad of offences—murder and numerous acts of violence—largely committed by lower-level associates and drawn in by the higher level, embroiled in retaliation for drug rips, as has been stated. But there are also relationship issues within these organizations that cause this violence and them to fall apart.

All have access to firearms and routinely utilize body armour or armoured vehicles and may have access to, or are involved in the trafficking of, weapons. Many of the shootings, assaults, kidnappings, and extortions are carried out overtly without regard to public safety, which has probably driven us here today.

Fraud, international smuggling of monetary instruments, and money laundering is well in excess of $100 million out of this province. Importation, exportation, production, manufacturing, and distribution of synthetic and other drugs fuel this activity...[Inaudible--Editor]...to make it viable. They are also involved in international smuggling of people, and I believe you heard from some of the panellists earlier that the production of extremely non-genuine supporting documents is also prevalent.

Structurally in British Columbia, we're linking municipal, provincial, and federal resources through the integrated teams. For example, the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit, the integrated gang task force, the outlaw motorcycle gang unit, and a new firearms unit being developed out of the core funding that was spoken of earlier are all coming together and having closer ties, so we can have specific, pointed investigations where we can get the best bang for our dollar.

CFSEU will have all the police agencies in British Columbia involved in its governance, direction, and actions to combat the spectrum of organized criminal activity. These units have a footprint across the province. I'll mention again that we'll be opening two CFSEU offices, one in Kelowna and one in Prince George, because of the issues in the northern and central parts of the province. We already have one in Victoria. This won't take away from other local, provincial, or federal responsibilities, but will ensure that the complete spectrum of criminal activity is subject to a coordinated enforcement body focused on the specific threats. And I think that's a key component. We can't leave one area and focus on another. In other words, we can't focus on just one specific area; we have to focus on the complete spectrum.

We have clear designs on continuing our enforcement focus in that way to increase public safety by targeting the violent groups at the earliest opportunity through predictive intelligence models and utilizing both covert and overt tactics. We must continue to support local, provincial, and national direction to disrupt and dismantle the organizations, from the street level to high-end sophisticated groups. Again, to reinforce this point, if we stop enforcing laws on one part of the spectrum, it allows the activity to flourish.

We're continuing the local, provincial, federal, and international law enforcement efforts through our intelligence and our intelligence sharing. It's better than it has ever been. Is it perfect? No. Do we have a long way to go? Yes. We have to increase the analysis both at the local police department or detachment level as well as throughout all of the specialty units and develop better protocols and quicker sharing in that regard so that the intelligence can be utilized.

We have to develop anti-gang initiatives to prevent youth from joining, and provide options to those who want to leave the gang lifestyle. I think there's a real shortfall in Canada at this point, for us to do that--certainly in our area.

We have to continue to educate not only law enforcement and the young law enforcement officers coming in, but the public and you as politicians, about the insidious nature of organized crime and how much of a grip it really does have on our society and the violence that spins out of that. We have to have more empirical research—and it's very limited here—in the areas of organized crime and gang activity. We have to continue to support the modernization of the Criminal Code, lawful access changes, and change in evidentiary rules to allow us to do that. There are huge bureaucratic slowdowns for us to actually do our job.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you so much. Who will be next?

Mr. Shinkaruk, please.

April 30th, 2009 / 11:10 a.m.

Inspector Gary Shinkaruk Officer in Charge, Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Enforcement, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you. My name is Gary Shinkaruk. I'm an inspector with the RCMP. I'm in charge of the provincial Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Enforcement Unit.

The OMGs have been present here in British Columbia for about 30 years. There are eight different outlaw motorcycle gangs, but without doubt the Hells Angels is the number one gang in this province. They're recognized internationally and nationally as the flagship way to run a criminal organization. They have worked hard and been very successful in the last few decades at being accepted by society. In many instances, they are revered and even romanticized. There seems to be an underlying theme that they're not that bad guys and that if you don't get in their way then you won't have any problems.

The reality is that they're an extremely sophisticated modern criminal organization that is extremely violent. They will partake in any criminal activity they can profit from, but without doubt, the bread and butter of the outlaw motorcycle gangs is the drug trade and the international drug trade. The death head patch provides them a criminal gold card anywhere in the world that they can take advantage of as individuals—they're recognized by any crime group as having credibility.

They're very alive to police techniques. They spend a lot of time keeping up on our techniques, and they're very successful at keeping ahead of the curve, causing us a lot of problems in our investigations that try to combat their new ways of doing business. They've copyrighted their death head patch and protect the death head patch with absolute vigour, both legally and illegally. They don't profit from the patch like any normal company would, but they profit by it through the credibility it gives to criminal abilities in the international community.

They work with all other crime groups—locally, nationally, and internationally—in order to achieve their goals. In today's world, you have to do that. You can't be exclusive to just your crime group. They're instantly recognized everywhere by their patch, and that provides a great ability for them to prevent witnesses and victims from coming forward and testifying, which again is a big obstacle. They have extremely well-run rules. In order to become a member, it takes roughly seven years of very tough scrutiny. Most organizations would be very proud of the way they run their business. They have weekly, monthly, and yearly national and international meetings, and they ensure that every one runs smoothly.

In the criminal world, violence is an absolute must. If you don't have the ability to be violent or be seen as violent, you are not going to survive. What we see in British Columbia with the spikes in violence is the result of a lot of these groups trying to gain some ground in the criminal world. That's the way they're going to do it. They're going to use violence. The Hells Angels aren't seen as part of this, often because they don't need to resort to it. By just showing up with a death head patch, people know they mean business criminally. They're very effective at staying out of the public limelight right now, but they're certainly enjoying the fact that the police have to put so many resources on these other public safety issues.

An investigation we did into the Hells Angels through the court process started in 2003. We ran it operationally for about two years. It cost us over $10 million a year to run the operation. Since the takedown, which was in 2005, it still costs us several million dollars a year. We are in court literally every day, and I imagine we will continue to be in court daily for the next two years. From start to finish, that will be about an eight-year operation.

As to where we need to go and things we've done—I think that was the question you said you'd like us to focus on—some good things have come forward. Certainly, subsection 25(1) of the Criminal Code—our ability by police to use exemptions—has been very good for us and very successful. We used it in our investigation very well. We used it 72 times. I know that's something that gets reviewed and has close scrutiny put on it, and rightfully so.I would encourage people to continue allowing the police to use that and keep the due diligence over it.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I'm sorry, but perhaps you could tell us what section 25 is, because most of the committee--