Evidence of meeting #22 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was organizations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I understand that you support these measures. Mr. Mainville and Mr. Latulippe, there was mention of the situation in Italy regarding the Cosa Nostra.
Do you know whether the measures taken by the Italian government had been enacted by Italy's parliament? In other words, is it working in Italy?
Chief Inspector, Director of Criminal Inquiries, Sûreté du Québec
I don't know. That was a quick search from which we learned that measures had been applied, but I don't know the details.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
My next question goes to what Mr. LeBlanc asked regarding police resources.
Do you need more effective tools that would enable you to combat organized crime more effectively now? We know, of course, that you need money, resources and additional police officers, but we are on the Justice committee, and our mandate is to amend things like legislation and bills and motions.
Commander, Division of Organized Crime, Anti-gang Section, City of Montreal Police Service
Money is involved, but really it means resources to provide training, not just for police forces, but also for the people who support our work, including prosecutors. We see that at all levels, even for judges, knowledge about organized crime is very limited at present. The evidence often has to be presented several times. We have to keep making the same cases, and the evidence is not easy to establish. We are doing it now, in an operation that was just carried out, using decisions that are being presented to the court. Getting through steps in the judicial process is complex.
Training about organized crime is very recent in Canada. This is a weak point that we can see at present in all police organizations. Interprovincial or even international training for specialists would be useful. We could exchange information with other police organizations everywhere in the world. In any event, training is limited at present, and measures to change that situation would unfortunately mean operating costs.
Chief Inspector, Director of Criminal Inquiries, Sûreté du Québec
I would also like to add that measures should be taken to simplify disclosure. We apply measures currently, but disclosure in Canada should be standardized and simpler. As I have said before in this committee, we should also adopt measures to deal with all enablers and proxies. That is crucial, in our view. We do investigations that have low chances of success because of the repeated use of proxies surrounded by very experienced enablers who put their knowledge to work. In many cases they have been paid by the public to harm the public.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
We know that codifying disclosure is important. We have put a lot of pressure on the government and we hope that it is going to codify it.
Mr. Bartlett, you said something that I think we need to dig down on. You said that other civil law countries, like France and Italy, don't have the charter of rights. We have all read about the anti-terrorist situation, and how in some court cases the section 1 override has helped preserve the legislation, but there have been some difficulties, too.
Is that what you mean? Do you mean that the charter, unlike in the United Kingdom, for instance, stands as something that has to be referenced or kept in mind if and when we go ahead with this?
Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
I hope I didn't suggest that the civil law countries don't have constitutional frameworks that include guarantees of rights. They're all parties, I think, to the European Convention on Human Rights, but the manner in which the rights are guaranteed is somewhat different from one set of constitutional guarantees to another, and our charter is somewhat different in that regard. There are a number of approaches that European countries have taken to a variety of issues, but when we've looked at the same issue in terms of whether or not there could possibly be a successful challenge under our own charter, the situation does seem to be different.
But yes, I'm talking about two things, really--the various guarantees in the charter that have to do with freedom of association and the various criminal law guarantees of the presumption of innocence, and what has to be demonstrated and proven to substantiate a criminal charge. These are issues that a court might accept, but we don't know that at this point.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
I think I understand the difference, but just briefly—
Conservative
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
How could we get through a minute and a half in such a short time?
Conservative
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
I just want to ask about Italy, about how it works there.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Maybe on the next go-round.
All right, we'll move to Monsieur Lemay for five minutes.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Mr. Latulippe, you talked about a study. I would like you to submit it so we can have a look at it. It sounds very interesting. I would like you to send it to us. Obviously it is not a confidential or internal document.
Chief Inspector, Director of Criminal Inquiries, Sûreté du Québec
No, it is a broader study that involves all police investigative activities, and goes right up to reduced capacity. It is explained.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
I would like to be able to have a look at it.
I understand the difference between the Hells Angels and the Crips. I think there is a lot of movement and change going on in the Crips, particularly at the bottom of the ladder, because it is a street gang.
If the Crips were named, would that solve part of the problem, or would they change name tomorrow morning and operate under the new name?
We know there is a way of getting into the Hells Angels and it's a long process. We know the process to become an active member of the Hells Angels. That doesn't exist for the little street gangs?
Commander, Division of Organized Crime, Anti-gang Section, City of Montreal Police Service
Yes, it does in fact exist for the Crips, which is still a major group. This kind of initiation is also seen there, although it is different from the Hells Angels initiation. In fact, initiations take place for "full patch members", if I can put it that way, although it is not as clearly defined as for the Hells Angels. Yes, these processes for identifying, selecting and achieving ranks do exist.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
The criminalist in me is speaking here. The problem, once you get to court, is that it can take a very long time. You have referred to factual evidence and recent evidence. Correct me if I am wrong. If I am not mistaken, in terms of factual evidence, you have to explain what the Hells Angels are, why this is organized crime, etc.
The last time you appeared before us, Mr. Latulippe, I asked you the question.
But Mr. Mainville, I don't know whether you were there.
How much time can it take in a trial, this part, this explanation of what the Hells Angels are?
Commander, Division of Organized Crime, Anti-gang Section, City of Montreal Police Service
It all depends on the size of the organization. For the Hells Angels, there are expert witnesses who could tell you about that. We also have expert witnesses about biker gangs in our organization.
For one witness in the box, as we say, it can take a week. And that is just to explain how the criminal organization operates at the Canadian, provincial and international levels. That includes cross-examination of course. Still, it all depends on the direction the defence is taking.
Chief Inspector, Director of Criminal Inquiries, Sûreté du Québec
Depending on the number of witnesses, as we have seen in some trials, it can take as long as three months, the time to prove all of the factors that show that it is a criminal gang. Because a number of witnesses have to be called, and then they are there for several days.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
I see a problem. Here again, it is the criminalist talking. What I am interested in is stopping the flow of money, because that is the crucial factor, as everyone knows.
If the Hells Angels are declared to be a banned organization, that doesn't mean that my good friend who invests their money...
I'm sorry, sir.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Chair, I'm the target today, I guess. You're not doing anything to defend me, either.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
The people who invest the money are not necessarily part of the Hells Angels. What do we do? I can ban the Hells Angels, the Bandidos, the Crips. We know they commit crimes, but they manage to get the money. What do we do?
Chief Inspector, Director of Criminal Inquiries, Sûreté du Québec
In fact, we think that is part of all the measures dealing with enablers, and it will be included in a document we are currently working on to request some amendments to deal with the new situation.
At present, with organized crime offences, the sentence imposed... In fact, the crime is simply to enable the work of a criminal organization, which is not very meaningful in the Criminal Code.
We think there should be other measures taken against professionals who support criminal organizations, because this is a new situation that is growing exponentially. In fact, we have cases currently before the courts and the number of enablers, be they lawyers, accountants, notaries, forensic accountants, has more than doubled, and now it has become virtually the norm. We think there has to be a clear message, at some point, directed specifically at these people who enable crime although they are not members of a criminal organization.
At the moment, these offences are covered by sections 467.12 or 467.13 of the Criminal Code.