Justice Committee on June 3rd, 2009

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So you'll be amending that paragraph?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, we will.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That was just really to clarify the language, so that it's only....

I have one final question. With regard to giving this authority over to the CBSA, there has been feedback to me that no accompanying dollars are going with it to the public safety department. There's some clear sense that there will obviously be additional responsibilities given, and an additional need for resources. Are you aware if anything has been budgeted for that?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I don't speak on behalf of the public safety minister, but my understanding is that the capacity and the resources are there and will be there.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'll remain skeptical on that last answer, Mr. Chair, but those are all my questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Norlock. You have five minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for coming.

I was just given a news article that I think brings to light why we need to bring in this type of legislation. Just last night, four people were injured after a stolen SUV ran a red light and slammed into a TTC bus shelter in downtown Toronto. Just before this occurred, there was another accident involving this stolen vehicle--it wasn't an accident; it was a collision, not an accident. People were injured. Police officers in Toronto use bicycles on patrol, so two police officers on bicycles attempted to stop the SUV, and you can imagine the kinds of life-threatening injuries that would occur there. Those who think property crime in and of itself does not incur the probability and possibility of bodily injury need to refresh their memory with the newscast that they will probably see tonight.

You may wish to comment on this also: in addition to that, the Insurance Bureau of Canada estimates that auto theft costs us all more than a billion dollars each year. That's taking into account health care, the injuries sustained, court time, policing costs, and legal out-of-pocket costs, and for those people unfortunate enough to have their vehicles stolen, there are deductibles, so there's a double whammy: their insurance costs go up, and there are deductibles.

The other thing I'd like you to comment on, Mr. Minister, is something you spoke about I think on a couple of occasions today, which is that a lot of auto theft is directly related to organized crime and the fact that high-end automobiles are put in containers, put in our ports, and sent overseas.

Could you comment on those two items?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You've hit the nail on the head, Mr. Norlock, about the problem. I hear it wherever I go in the country. I heard quite a bit of it in western Canada, for instance, when I visited a number of the cities out there. Auto theft is high on the list of the challenges they face.

Interestingly enough, there have been some innovative approaches in Winnipeg and other communities to try to intercept or break up the activity that has become a major problem for them. We're working hand in hand with them, and those jurisdictions that have found this to be a particular problem have been most welcoming of this.

Dave Chomiak, Attorney General of Manitoba, pointed out just how archaic some of the provisions are in the Criminal Code. He says there's a separate provision for stealing a cow, but there is nothing about stealing a car. As members of the justice committee--and as an ex officio member of that committee, and I thank you for that--we have the responsibility of continuously making sure our laws are up to date, so again I think it will be welcomed.

With respect to organized crime, they're telling me that the Canada Border Services agents didn't have authority unless they believed it was a prohibited good. Well, a car in a container is not a prohibited good, so these things were moving in and out of the country. The situation was very problematic, so as you heard in my opening comments, I made specific reference.

Again, it's not strictly justice-related; everything to do with the Canada Border Services Agency is with the public safety minister, but I think it had to go hand in hand with this particular legislation so that the people at our borders have the ability to try to break up this kind of activity. As was the case with identity theft, it's a more complete addressing of what has become a challenge in this country, and I've have had basically nothing but positive feedback.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Dosanjh, you have five minutes.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I understand that clause 1 of this bill adds to the list in section 183 of the Criminal Code certain offences that are related to auto theft for electronic interception.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, it adds new offences.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes, and I appreciate that. I think that's a very good thing.

I have a larger related question. You remember our friend Wally Oppal, who unfortunately lost the election. He had asked when he came here for improvements to the electronic lawful access. I know you said to us earlier, in one of your previous appearances, that you don't talk about what may happen five weeks from now--

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It was five days from now.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

--but maybe you might want to tell us what might happen next week. Are you planning to enhance the lawful access, as sought by Mr. Oppal and others across the country?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I look at all these issues very carefully and I welcome comments and inputs from my fellow attorneys general across Canada.

As an example, you mentioned Mr. Oppal. One of the things he was looking forward to and wanted to see was a change in the credit for time served, and we have delivered on that. We may disagree on a lot of things, but I think people will agree that the government has moved at a very steady clip on changes to the criminal justice system and public safety. We are basically moving to protect victims and law-abiding Canadians. We've had a pretty busy agenda.

I don't close the door to anything, but the subject we have before us today is auto theft. I appreciate all input from you, from Wally Oppal, and from attorneys general across this country, and I look forward to more advice and input.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We're going to Mr. Ménard for five minutes.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I think that we should reassure the Minister: I believe that all parties are supporting the bill. The Minister has said that he hopes that all bills will be passed diligently and quickly and I am under the impression that it should not be too much of a problem with this one.

Our researchers and yourself have raised the issue of car theft. You said that only 11% of car thefts are resolved and that in my own province, the situation is even more problematic.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

No, I don't think I said that, Mr. Ménard. No, I'm sorry.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

The statistics furnished by the Library of Parliament reveal that only 11% of car thefts reported to police led to the identification of the offender. I think that you said earlier that in my own province this ratio was even lower than the average. I am referring to solving car theft cases.

To what would you attribute this low rate of identifying the perpetrators of car thefts? Has the Department studied this question?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We can provide you with whatever statistics we have, and we do have them with respect to auto theft and solving rates and all that. That's part of our problem, Monsieur Ménard; the law is out of date. You try to prosecute people for possession of the stolen property, but when you break up a chop shop, how many people are actually possessing it? You have them dismantling these cars, changing the vehicle identification numbers, and shipping them outside of the country. It's very difficult.

Again, this was brought home to me on several occasions. I've been in the province of Quebec, and they've pointed this out to me and said, “Please do something about this.” So again, I think if you check with law enforcement agencies and people on this, you'll find they'll very much welcome this.

You're welcome to any statistics we have in terms of solving this, and they're quite startling.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Can my colleague continue on the matter related to young offenders? Would he have just a minute to do so?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Yes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Please allow me, Mr. Minister, to repeat my question.

I saw Mr. Bartlett raise his eyebrows as I did. If a young offender is prosecuted under the Criminal Code because he committed a criminal offence, he could be prosecuted by indictment. One thing concerns me. Even when we deal with young offenders—and God knows that most car thefts are committed by young people—very often the Crown proceeds by indictment even when they appear before a youth tribunal.

I repeat my question. Would the mandatory penalty also apply when, in the case of a young person turning 18, this person is convicted for a third offence?