Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, witnesses.
I'm going to give my questioning in memory of Gordon Fairweather, who was a great New Brunswick parliamentarian and the first head of the Canadian Human Rights Commission. He held his seat as a Tory.
I'm saying good things about a Conservative, so we're starting off very well.
Really, I thought today we would have a debate on the concerns about procedure, equality, and fairness versus substantive law--that is, usually something everybody can agree on as egregious, and an act that should be impugned. But I think you have raised mostly, in your 20 minutes, procedural matters, the far-reaching hand of the state, the inequality. Those are all very legitimate concerns, if proven.
I will tell you that it's probably somebody's job to disprove some of the things, Mr. Levant, that you might say, I think particularly with respect to the allegation of hijacking a person's identity, on page 38 of your book. I think if you said that about an individual you'd be sued for liable, probably successfully.
But that's not why we're here. I think we're here to discuss the broader issue of whether what is impugned is wrong, and whether, as Canadians, we believe what Justice Dickson said at the Supreme Court of Canada when he decided that section 13 was a valid constitutional part of our law.
I guess what I'd like to ask you is whether you at least agree that the Canadian Criminal Code provisions are being appropriately administered and whether there is in fact some curb on free speech. The fundamental question is whether you believe there are curbs on free speech when free speech gets into the realm of hate speech, extreme speech, speech that is meant to, in the words of the late Justice Dickson, reduce people so that no one finds “redeeming qualities” in them; and hatred is “a set of emotions and feelings which involve extreme ill will towards another person or group of persons”. As he said, “To say that one 'hates' another means in effect that one finds no redeeming qualities in the latter.”
The cases dealt with by the tribunal are issues about the “Jewish lobby”; and the words spoken were, “that lied to us about Hitler”. I won't go on. I don't think we need to hear the atrocious statements made. But they shocked the conscience of people, and they go beyond freedom of speech. They're covered, in some cases, by the Criminal Code.
Do you believe at least in the Criminal Code provisions on hate speech? And don't you think there are limits?
Finally, you know that the Criminal Code requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which is more difficult than on a balance of probabilities. You also know that the Criminal Code has punitive provisions involving jail, etc., whereas in administrative tribunals the sentences meted out are minor in terms of finances.
Let's not truck with the administrative procedural aspects. Let's get to the heart of it. The question is simple: are there limits on free speech in this country of Canada?