Evidence of meeting #36 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mortgage.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
I'm going to have to stop you there.
Mr. Dosanjh, I believe you're next. You have five minutes.
October 5th, 2009 / 4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Thank you.
I'm going to ask very brief questions and I would ask you respond to the questions rather than going into long remarks.
It appears to me from your remarks so far that you believe there is absolutely no redeeming quality to section 13. There are organizations concerned with human rights that are not the Canadian Human Rights Commission that believe it should be narrowed, rewritten, appropriately constrained, but you don't believe that can be done. Am I right or wrong?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't believe it can be reformed, and I'm joined by Egale, PEN Canada, the Canadian Association of Journalists, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, and every newspaper board in this country.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
You believe there should be nothing between absolute free speech and the Criminal Code provisions.
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Nothing legally, but there should be the power of peer pressure and political pressure.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I get your point.
Let me tell you that there are some people who believe that even the hate speech law needs to be rewritten, perhaps broadened, perhaps narrowed. There are different views on that.
In terms of that particular provision, let me remind you of what Keegstra said. Keegstra basically was a high school teacher who taught there was a worldwide Jewish conspiracy. He described Jews to his people as treacherous, subversive, sadistic, money loving, power hungry, child killers, and several other things. He was convicted of a hate crime under our Criminal Code.
It appears to me from what you have said that this kind of language and those kinds of things are okay to say.
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
No. Is it okay to say? I'm a Jew who is absolutely opposed to anti-Semitism, but I fear, much more than some buffoon ranting, a state so powerful that it can tell me what I can feel or not.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
He is using those words and that speech. Are you suggesting that he was appropriately convicted?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Not convicted of a crime. He was turned from a nothing nobody auto mechanic and teacher into an international celebrity, and thousands of people heard him.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I take it from that you don't actually believe in the Canadian Criminal Code provisions either.
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I believe in equality before the law. The problem with these kinds of cases is that if you have a professional department of human rights enforcers, they go after the easy targets. There's an imam in Montreal who has said far worse things than Mr. Keegstra, but because that is multiculturally complicated--
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, and I believe a complaint to the Quebec Human Rights Commission was rejected, whereas some nothing twerp like Keegstra is easy to go after.
Equality before the law means it makes no difference. If you run a red light and you run over Keegstra or you run over Nelson Mandela, it should make no difference in law. The trouble with an enforcement regime is that it picks and chooses.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Steyn, do you believe Keegstra was appropriately prosecuted and convicted?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I agree with Ezra in that I prefer a social disapproval, activist parents, or a school board firing to a law restricting what individuals can say and think. I would certainly support the school board firing him. I would certainly support the parent-teacher association refusing to let their children be taught by him. But I think we stray into very dangerous territory when we attempt, in effect, to ban certain words.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I wholeheartedly disagree with you on that, but we'll leave it at that.
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
But here we're talking about section 13, and we're not talking about the Criminal Code--
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
No, I was talking about the Canadian Criminal Code provisions very specifically.