Justice Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2009

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Mr. Purcell, you didn't speak of this, so it may be that it's not within your purview, but I have an interest in what we might do or propose to render the forfeiture of proceeds of crime more effective and cut the legs out from under some of the organized criminals who are engaging in profit-making activities. I don't know whether you've had the opportunity to observe, from your perch in the Department of Justice, any applications along that line, or whether you can tell us anything about how often such applications are made in your jurisdiction, or what you might suggest would make it easier or more effective to go after the proceeds of crime.

[Robert Purcell]

Yes, I can answer that. It is a topical issue for us right now.

Since 1998 we've had a federal integrated proceeds-of-crime branch in Halifax. As you know, that targets only substantive offences, the federal ones, those being drugs, customs, and that area.

Through our program for 250 additional officers, just as of last spring we have created an integrated provincial proceeds-of-crime branch, which will be targeting the criminal activity arising from such matters as theft, fraud, prostitution, to take the legs out from underneath those folks.

The third item, which has been very topical among many jurisdictions, is civil forfeiture. Nova Scotia received royal assent on a Civil Forfeiture Act and an asset management act in December of 2007. We did not proclaim it, because at or about that time the Ontario matter of Chatterjee was going to the Supreme Court of Canada on the issue of the constitutionality of the Ontario legislation. The Supreme Court came back this spring, saying it was within the powers of the province to deal with property matters in this manner. We are hopeful that in this budget, under public safety and security, we will be moving forward to include a civil forfeiture unit to attack and take out the legs and the profit of making crimes.

So there are three ways to do it, and we hope very shortly to have all three out there and operating.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Are there any implications for us federally that you are aware of? I know you are in the Nova Scotia Department of Justice, but I don't know whether you have any comment or observation on what we might do in the Criminal Code or related statutes. If you don't, that's okay.

[Robert Purcell]

I don't think I do. What might have been considered to be a gap was that both the federal proceeds and the provincial proceeds legislation are premised on proving the substantive offence, which can be a somewhat difficult chore. If you don't prove the substantive offence, then you cannot proceed with the forfeiture aspects of it.

Civil forfeiture is based not on having the substantive offence proved beyond a reasonable doubt but rather beyond a balance of probabilities. So we hope that gap has been filled.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move back to Ms. Jennings for five minutes.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I don't have any questions. You two have been so good that you've answered all my questions. So I'll let my other colleagues benefit from those five minutes. Thank you both.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you; your're very generous.

Mr. Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You stated that there had started to be cases of child exploitation. What do you mean exactly? Is it the exploitation of young girls for prostitution, or the exploitation of child workers?

[Stephen Schneider]

To some extent we've seen a rise in young men trying to prostitute young girls, both of the age of majority and under. Really what I was concerned with, and I think this is obviously a problem throughout Canada, is what I call this underclass, the at-risk communities, which are not only a disproportionate source of crime and offenders but also the places in which much of the violent crime is concentrated.

If you do geographic studies of a city, you'll find that there are certain parts of the city that overwhelmingly have a concentration of crime and violent crime. Statistics Canada did an excellent study in Winnipeg, using social data and crime statistics and geo-mapping, that showed that something like 7% of the city generated over 30% of the crime. That's typical in many Canadian cities. I'm from Vancouver; we know where crime is concentrated.

My greatest concern is the factors that give rise to chronic offending. We know what those factors are and we know where the highest-risk communities are in major cities. What I'm advocating is a greater allocation of preventative resources to those communities. Again, not to sound too much like an academic, the research shows overwhelmingly that these preventative programs work. I run a program myself called PALS.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You talked about “child exploitation“. You stated that there are groups or individuals that exploit children. It is mostly young girls who are exploited for prostitution. Is that what you are talking about?

[Stephen Schneider]

I didn't mention child exploitation, but to address that point, we are seeing a greater organization of—

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

It is perhaps Mr. Purcell who stated that there had started to be cases of child exploitation.

[Robert Purcell]

In my recollection, in my notes I made a list of things that could occur or did occur in Nova Scotia, including child exploitation. I don't recall saying “new”. That was in the context of child exploitation in terms of the ICE units, the integrated child exploitation units, which are primarily Internet-based operations.

There have been several investigations here in Nova Scotia related to those types of activities, as there have been across Canada.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I wanted to determine the level of organized crime that exists here. Have you reached a point where criminal organizations are so powerful and so rich that they are now seeking to invest in legal businesses, which could have the effect of eliminating competition? If these criminal organizations represent such a grave danger, it is because they are not afraid of systematically using murder to eliminate competitors or to impose discipline to the advantage of the leaders of these organizations.

The Hells Angels are a good example. Battle was waged against them and several of them were imprisoned, such that there are fewer of them in Nova Scotia or, at least, their operations are more limited. Is there something else that replaced the Hells Angels? Are there really criminal organizations in Nova Scotia? Do the large criminal organizations, such as the mafia or a group similar to the Hells Angels, the Bandidos, for example, still maintain activities in Nova Scotia, or are there just relatively small organizations?

[Robert Purcell]

I think those questions would have been better addressed by the law enforcement panel, as they can speak specifically.... As I recall, there was a comment this morning that there is at least one patch-carrying member in Nova Scotia.

To the degree that one might say, “Well, Nova Scotia is okay then, since you don't have the Hells Angels here any more, and you don't have some of the big gangs that are elsewhere in Canada”, we do have--whether people appreciate them as being organized crime, as the outlaw motorcycle gangs--street crime activity, and we do think it is serious.

When we talked about the incidents in 2004, I think Stephen is right. That was a culmination of the root causes, getting at groups that started to formulate themselves into more than just one bad individual, into four bad individuals, in street crimes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I would not go to such extremes, Mr. Purcell. That does not require the same type of action.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Ménard, you're at the end of your time. We're two minutes over.

We'll move on to Mr. Rathgeber.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you Mr. Chair, and thank you to both witnesses for your very interesting presentations. I have some questions in follow-up to the questions of my friend, Mr. Comartin, regarding telemarketing.

He's quite right that it's perhaps the first time we've heard about telemarketing and its link to organized crime. I'm not sure that I entirely understand what it is. Is it simply a matter of phoning unsuspecting victims and getting them to give their credit card numbers? Is that what you're talking about?

[Stephen Schneider]

There are at least 12 different varieties of telemarketing frauds, according to the American Marketing Association. It includes everything from saying “You've won a vacation, but you have to send us $1,000 first”, to insurance fraud, to simple high-pressure sales of real products. It really is highly diverse.

But the common denominator is generally targeting seniors—the primary target, because they're more trusting of people and are easily bullied. There are high-pressure sales tactics. Very common is advance-fee fraud. I'm sure we've all received an e-mail from someone claiming to be a relative of a deposed dictator in Africa who has $60 billion in a bank account and needs your bank account number. That's the predominant form of telemarketing fraud.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So even if it occurs over the Internet—and I've received that one at least a hundred times—but not by telephone, it's considered in the broad—

[Stephen Schneider]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How much money did you send?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Those files are permanently sealed.

Sticking to the theme of currency, I really enjoyed your brief lesson on the history of organized crime. When we were in Vancouver, a criminologist—I forget his name—opined that identity theft and white-collar crime was going to be the next big wave of organized criminal activity. Now we're talking about telemarketing, and that brings us to my question.

Using your study—and sometimes I believe history is a great mechanism to predict the future—are you able to opine about what the next wave and the next currency of organized crime might look like?