Justice Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2009

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

What about human trafficking? There have been some alleged high-profile incidents of that recently on the west coast. Is that an issue on the east coast?

[Chief Frank A. Beazley]

We had our first case of human trafficking earlier this year. A group that has become national in scope was moving women across the province for the purposes of dancing and prostitution. That was the first case I've seen.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

That wasn't by boat?

[Chief Frank A. Beazley]

No, I'm sorry, it wasn't.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

On the two naval issues, Mr. Aggett, is there coordination with the navy or the coast guard with respect to patrolling the harbour and the Atlantic with respect to any suspicious boat that might be entering Canadian waters?

Tell me how that works. Who has the command?

[David Aggett]

There is a well-established network. Most of that work is done through the Maritime Security Operations Centre, which is DND, RCMP, Transport Canada, Fisheries and Oceans, Canada Border Services Agency--I hope I haven't left anybody out.

We're all busy looking for our specific mandates out there, but by virtue of our membership in MSOC, we are allowed to share perspectives on the information we gather. For example, if Transport Canada is doing a marine pollution surveillance flight over the Grand Banks and they see something suspicious...DND, RCMP, and Canada Border Services Agency all know about those kinds of things, so it gives us an opportunity to pick those up.

In terms of dedicated flights or surveillance, looking for stowaways, or that sort of thing, it is not that organized.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

What is the acronym MSOC?

[David Aggett]

That is the Maritime Security Operations Centre. In essence it is a multi-departmental intelligence gathering, analysis, and dissemination group.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

That's centred in Halifax?

[David Aggett]

There's one in Halifax and one in British Columbia.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you so much.

Those are my questions, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Norlock, five minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

Just by way of background, my background is policing, 30 years with the Ontario Provincial Police.

When it comes to funding issues, I know municipal police forces always have issues. Of course, the Province of Ontario went through some trauma that other provinces go through in a change in funding models. So there's always a need for funding.

We always want to create something new, and I always believe that perhaps instead of creating something new we just expand an existing organization so that we don't begin to create more and more administrative burdens, which, in and of themselves, create additional costs. Federally, whenever there's a problem, we throw it at the RCMP and say, you guys handle it.

From the Ontario Provincial Police, my experience has been that when you're hard put, when the chief is told by the police services board that we need something done over here all of a sudden, they don't create additional people; you have to go into your department and look for additional people and shove everything around. Very often it's one or two fewer people out there on the streets doing the day-to-day chores. That's why I think, before we create something new, we need to see if there is something existing.

The reason I say that is this committee is looking at new ways of fighting organized crime, etc. I heard a member here, who unfortunately is no longer in the room, but I'm sure she'll read it in the blues, say the federal government should absorb this cost and absorb that cost. Chief, without any insult intended here, of course you're going to say, yes, somebody else should pay the freight, because you have to fight really hard with your council to get your budget.

What I'm saying is crime is something we all deal with. It doesn't matter what level of government you're at. There are new and innovative ways of doing things, but we have this new problem and it's called technology. My personal observation is, especially when we deal with organized crime and their inventive financial ways of doing things, that instead of police forces going out and hiring the expertise, we can hire them on contract. There are ways of doing it.

I know at the OPP we were constantly asked by our provincial level of government.... We wanted to be able to show that our level of service is acceptable to the community and they actually hired somebody from university with a degree in polling, scientific polling, and they have somebody who does that.

Then we look at socio-economic issues and we expect our police force to be social workers, and that's not necessarily what police forces do, but we have a responsibility to act in a social way with our communities.

One of the things I'm going to ask the chief is of course about community-based policing. That seems to be the way most police forces across Canada deliver their policing services, and I wonder if that's the model you work under here in Halifax.

[Chief Frank A. Beazley]

Yes, it is. It is community-based policing, but community-based policing, as you're aware, is delivered in different ways. We call ours our community response model, where we go out and work with communities. We have officers who specialize in partnerships with government, non-governmental agencies, and community groups and tenants' associations. We do all of that.

I've worked very closely with the OPP for over 39 years. The OPP was the agency that actually helped my department get into wiretapping and climbing poles in those early days, and the many things we do.

When you say we just quickly ask the federal government to do everything, we're talking about organized crime here today and organized crime is not just a local issue. It crosses borders, it crosses provinces, it crosses countries, it crosses the world.

There are some things that are just beyond the Halifax Regional Police or just beyond the OPP. I've worked with Commissioner Fantino. We're on the phone together monthly. There are some things that have to be, I believe, nationally approached or nationally coordinated, and that's why I believe we have the federal force, and that's why I believe the stronger they can be, the better it is for our country.

So witness protection is not something HRM can do. Can we be asked to contribute towards a national fund? Yes. Can we be asked to have municipal-provincial-federal partnerships? When I say a funded program, this has been discussed at Ottawa with the RCMP, and actually the RCMP in the past have been very supportive in trying to do something.

Technology is beyond any local municipality to be able to deal with. We need a federal approach to dealing with these types of issues. I've got a very good system for doing what I need to do, but it's hard to keep it current and it's expensive to keep it current.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

All right, very short.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

For the committee, though, the public safety committee did do a study on witness protection. This is for the benefit of our researchers, to know that was brought up.

Perhaps another member could ask the chief and Superintendent Brennan to expound on the matter of existing programs they feel can be opened up to deliver a more coordinated effort on organized crime. Perhaps that might be somebody else's question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll go to Madame Thi Lac, and then we'll go to Mr. Comartin for a last question.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I will be sharing my time with Mr. Ménard.

Welcome to all of you and thank you for being here.

We know that one of the income streams for organized crime is drugs. Over the last few years, we have seen organized crime fight to control more territory and a larger share of the drug market.

In the region, what share of the market do marijuana, cocaine and ecstasy account for? To what extent are you successful in the seizure of these drugs?

[Supt Brian Brennan]

From a regional perspective, I would say that of all the drugs seized in the Atlantic region, probably 70% to 75% of it is marijuana; 10% to 15% would be cocaine or crack cocaine; the remainder would be a combination of prescription pills and other drugs such as heroin, but those are not seen very much.

In terms of organized crime, 90% of how they generate their revenue is through the sale of illicit drugs.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

If marijuana keeps you so busy and prevents you from pursuing other investigations, we could perhaps legalize this drug. This is one of the suggestions that has been made and one of the reasons given to legalize marijuana, which is the least harmful of drugs. I am not saying that it is not dangerous; that is not my personal view. Alcohol it too presents certain dangers, that are not the same.

Were we to legalize marijuana, would that not cut off the income stream of a major portion of organized crime? That could free you up and allow you to do other things.

[Supt Brian Brennan]

I wouldn't say that legalizing marijuana would reduce the amount of work and effort that police agencies put into organized crime. I'll use the analogy that tobacco is legal, yet tobacco is a huge contraband item that organized crime groups manipulate to generate revenue. It's not necessarily whether or not the contraband is legal or not; it's the leverage that organized crime puts against it to generate the revenues.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I would like to come back to Mr. Norlock's question, which I found interesting. Are there areas in which there could be better collaboration in the fight against organized crime?

[Supt Brian Brennan]

Fighting organized crime is so wide in scope that to give specific suggestions is almost impossible in terms of a policing perspective. I think we need to find ways to support policing in terms of integrated approaches, and potentially integrated funding methodologies to support those. We need to be out ahead of the curve in technology, as we mentioned several times here. I think as a society, police agencies, government, etc., we need to ensure the deterrents for becoming involved in organized crime are such that we have the ability to disrupt and dismantle, but also, at the earliest stages, educate, and not only educate those who may become involved in organized crime, but also educate the general public in terms of the effects of organized crime on them and on society.

The RCMP is supporting prevention at the front end, investigations in the middle, and also trying to support the core process by bringing forth the absolute best cases we can against the highest levels of organized crime.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Before we go to Mr. Comartin, because he had one last question, since you're on the issue, earlier you had talked about the challenge of trying to address the criminals, the organized crime figures, who port their cell numbers. I think you were the one who raised that in your initial presentation. They port it from one service to another, and it's very difficult to get the information from the service providers. Have you had a look at C-46 and C-47, which, by the way, are government bills, not private members' bills?

Have you had a chance to look at, say, Bill C-46, which deals with the whole technology issue?