Evidence of meeting #5 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was licence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, Canadian Police Association
The approved screening test.
That would give us only one thing: we wouldn't need to administer the first test to the driver because that test would be automatically administered at a road block. At that point, the alcohol screening test would be administered in the field.
If the result was positive, we could then take the person to the police station to conduct the official second test.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
All right. You say that's done in certain states; you refer to the case of Australia.
When I was a student, I took some courses in constitutional law. You've no doubt noticed that I am the youngest member of this committee, and thus the last to have taken constitutional law courses. We were told that, under section 8 of the Charter, when someone was stopped, that constituted an arbitrary detention, but one that was warranted on the ground that it would prevent carnage. The word used in the courses was “carnage”, and that was warranted in a democratic society.
I am prepared to take a favourable view of the police request. However, if we granted your argument, I don't know whether it would pass the Charter test in the Supreme Court—and on that point, perhaps we could get the opinion of your colleague, Mr. Rosenthal.
Counsel, Criminal Lawyers' Association
As Mr. Di Luca said, we don't think it would at all survive a charter challenge, because there is now not only an entirely random stopping of vehicles but an entirely random seizure of someone's breath.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
In Ontario, if I remember correctly, Mr. Chairman, there was a challenge against what was called the RIDE program, and it passed the Charter test. It's true that there were two tests at the time, and there had to be reasonable grounds.
Lastly, let's say we have an obligation as parliamentarians to consider the question of Charter compliance.
Do you think that would pass the Charter test?
President, Canadian Police Association
Yes. Let's look at what's also going on in Australia and New Zealand, which are democratic countries. Even though the constitutions of those two countries differ from that of Canada, I assume we could use the same tests there.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
I don't know whether Australia has a charter of rights, because it's mainly the Charter that's at issue. Well, we'll have to be aware of that when we prepare our report.
However, that would simplify your lives as police officers. There would be a single test, no reasonable grounds and everyone at the road block would be stopped, without reasonable grounds.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Thank you, Monsieur Ménard. I will move on to Mr. Comartin, for seven minutes.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Marchand or Mr. Therien, I think probably the single biggest concern we have about not moving the test from 0.08 to 0.05 in the code is that Quebec still is not in the system administratively. I know that when you were here last year you were holding out some hope that we might see some progress. We've already heard from the department that nothing much has happened; it has sat there since they turned it down 14 to 15 months ago. Is there any reason for us to have optimism that they might come onside?
Emile Therien Past President, Canada Safety Council
They came out with some road safety initiatives, and this was included with the package, but when they went through, it was one of the things that was left out. It's hard to understand. But we think that in time they will certainly go there, because it's right across the country.
I was speaking with someone in Quebec. I think what they want to see is how it is working in the other provinces, especially Ontario.
General Manager of Programs, Canada Safety Council
We certainly believe there is a willingness, but there wasn't the political acceptance yet in the province of Quebec. We believe that in time Quebec will likely follow suit.
Past President, Canada Safety Council
When you move to administer licence suspensions, the administration involved is very detailed and onerous. We know from experience talking with Ministry of Transportation people in Toronto that they wanted to make absolutely sure these worked. They had no sanctions on your licence. Prior to this they would take your car away and give it back to you, I think, in 12 hours. Now they are moving to other sanctions, because they feel pretty sure that the administration is in place to handle these administrative licence suspensions.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
To both you and the Insurance Bureau, we've had some discussion already in the committee about the use of the interlock device. I know what I'm going to hear from the Insurance Bureau, because they always tell us the same thing. They always want to leave it as a choice—and if that's not the case, Mr. Tremblay, you can tell me otherwise.
Mr. Marchand, do you have any position? Where is the Canada Safety Council on that point, on the use of it, and under what circumstances should it be compellable?
General Manager of Programs, Canada Safety Council
As per our presentation last year, we're very much in support of the interlock system, particularly when it is applied early on. We do know that many drivers continue to drive, but there is provision under the code to provide a reduced time to get the licence back under certain circumstances, such as the interlock system. By controlling the driver, we feel that we can reduce collisions and then bring them into a system where they will respect the law.
What happened here in Ontario is very interesting, because what we had was a year without a licence and then a year with the breathalyzer, as opposed to what Quebec was doing, where after three months they could get a limited licence with it.
In Ontario, after a year, people didn't go under the interlock system. They just waited another year before they got their licence, which meant that in that first year they got used to driving without a licence and they figured they were not going to get caught, and they just kept right on going until they could get their full licence after two years.
I think most drivers can respect it for a little while, and then if there is an opportunity to get the interlock system, they will enter it so that they can be legal. But if they wait too long and get into the practice of driving without a licence, they will just stay that way.
Director, Road Safety and Special Projects, Insurance Bureau of Canada
As regards the insurance industry, as long as someone is legally entitled to drive in the province, with or without an interlock ignition, they can be insured, usually by a facility association. Individual companies that take higher risk may or may not decide to underwrite that risk, but in the end they can be insured if they are allowed to drive legally in the province.
The second point I would like to mention is that there are jurisdictions that do not inform the registrar. They are New Brunswick; Quebec, because it doesn't have a program right now; Ontario, but this has changed since it introduced its new legislation; and Alberta, which we're looking at as the other jurisdiction. Those are the four jurisdictions that do not, as of now, record those infractions with an abstract.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you for that.
Monsieur Marchand and Monsieur Therien, just going back to the jurisdictions where they've used the interlock, is there one in particular we can look to that has used it effectively, in your opinion? Are there any studies?
General Manager of Programs, Canada Safety Council
Yes, I believe both Alberta and Quebec are two jurisdictions you could look at where this practice has been in use for a few years now. We do believe it's an effective way to get them into a controlled system as opposed to saying they don't exist.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Have you seen any study or analysis of what has happened over the two years?
Past President, Canada Safety Council
I think the Traffic Injury Research Foundation of Canada has done work on this. They are the most valid body for this type of work. They are Ottawa-based.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Would you have that available to you to get it to the committee?
General Manager of Programs, Canada Safety Council
Actually, I can easily provide that piece of research to the committee.