Evidence of meeting #52 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was restitution.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
3:50 p.m.
Commr Stephen White
Yes.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
What advantage would this legislation give you in prosecuting frauds currently?
3:50 p.m.
Commr Stephen White
I can't speak in terms of prosecuting; I can only speak from an investigative standpoint. Obviously, public prosecution or provincial prosecutors would have to speak from a prosecution viewpoint, but the bill is a sentencing bill, as it is, from my understanding, so it would not impact the investigation.
As I mentioned at the outset, I would hope that this type of legislation, at least in some instances, would be a deterrent to any individuals looking to become involved in significant fraudulent activity, so in that way it would be a potential benefit from an investigator's standpoint. But I can't speak to the prosecution standpoint.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
This bill aside, are current laws adequate for the fight against frauds that you are aware of?
3:50 p.m.
Commr Stephen White
I would have to say yes. This current legislation is not adding any new offences and the primary offence we always work with, whether it be in the area of capital markets or any type of other fraud, is the fraud provision within the Criminal Code of Canada, which covers a very broad spectrum of fraudulent activity, obviously.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
The Criminal Code provisions on aiding and abetting are rather broad. In the case of a major fraud, do you charge all of the people who perhaps knew that the organization they were working for was committing a fraud?
3:50 p.m.
Commr Stephen White
We would definitely hope we have sufficient evidence of any individuals being involved in fraudulent activity. Again, it's difficult to articulate without having a specific case in front of us. In every investigation we try as much as possible to identify the broadest scope of individuals involved in a fraudulent activity and, as much as possible, develop evidence to eventually charge and prosecute as many of those individuals as possible. I can't say whether in every instance we were able to do that; however, that is our goal.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Insofar as these people are aware that the business is in the process of defrauding the population or some people, whether it be an accountant, a president, a secretary or a receptionist, and you have evidence of their participation, you are prepared to charge them, are you not?
3:55 p.m.
Commr Stephen White
If we have evidence of their participation, certainly we... That's the key part of our investigation now, whether or not an individual may have knowledge that something is going on. They may have knowledge. They may have no role at all, in terms of participating in criminal activity, but through their role in a company or an organization they may come into knowledge that something is happening. At that point they would become a witness. We would definitely hope, if that individual is identified, that they would come forward as a witness, or they would agree to cooperate with law enforcement if and when they're approached.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
3:55 p.m.
Commr Stephen White
Again, it depends on their potential or actual involvement in the particular fraud or criminal activity. It would come down to a very specific case. We'd look at that case and the evidence, together with the prosecutor, as well. Obviously, they would have some determination in looking at the evidence and determining whether or not there were sufficient evidence to criminally charge someone.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Lately, we have read in the newspapers about several fraud cases with a value of over several million dollars. In fact, do you recall a person being convicted for fraud over a million dollars who was sentenced to less than two years?
3:55 p.m.
Commr Stephen White
I am not aware of any recently where they were the principal suspect in a fraud over $1 million and got less than two years.
I'll refer to my colleagues to see if they're aware of any recently.
Steve.
December 7th, 2009 / 3:55 p.m.
Superintendent Stephen Foster Director, Commercial Crime Branch, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
My understanding is that there have been a few. I'm aware of a few instances of fraud involving an amount over $1 million where the sentence received was less than two years.
But there aren't many. As I recall, the minister had said the number was 12, actually.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.
I guess the difficulty I'm having is trying to get my head around the frequency and the volume.
The Pricewaterhouse study obviously was an international study. Have you done any analysis as to whether their methodology is accurate? Does it give us a clear picture? There is not much on Canada, but does it give us a clear picture of the problem internationally?
3:55 p.m.
Commr Stephen White
I can't speak to the methodology. Unfortunately there aren't a whole lot of studies that deal specifically with trying to measure the magnitude of fraud. Without actually knowing and looking at what their methodology is, no, I wouldn't be able to comment on that.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
They repeatedly indicate that there are four major sectors where the fraud is taking place. Is that accurate for Canada as well?
3:55 p.m.
Supt Stephen Foster
Could you quickly identify those four sectors?
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Sure...but I lost the page.
It was insurance, financial services, technology, and... I'm trying to find the fourth one. I think banking was the fourth one. I think they were differentiating between the financial sector--stock markets and that kind of thing--and the banking sector. I think that was the fourth one.
Have you any sense of whether that is mirrored in Canada?
3:55 p.m.
Supt Stephen Foster
Without trying to explain it in too much detail, there are different types of crime committed. Some of those crimes would involve banks. Other crimes would involve financial institutions. Technology crimes might be frauds involving the Internet.
Those are areas where we see significant activity, but I don't know that I would categorize them in the same way that report does.
4 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Is there one sector that would be at the top of the list currently, say in 2007 to 2009? I am looking at both the frequency of the crimes and the dollar volume.
4 p.m.
Supt Stephen Foster
From the fraud perspective, commercial crimes area, we see significant fraudulent activity in the area of counterfeit cheques and mass marketing fraud.
4 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
In that regard, the mandatory minimum being imposed if this bill goes through starts at $1 million. I know that the members of the committee are struggling with this as well. I'm trying to get some sense of how many there are. We have a few cases that the minister's office sent us over the weekend.
Have you any sense as to whether that is a proper cut-off? In particular, should it be lower? I'm not asking so much for an opinion. Is there any evidence as to what figure we should be using as an appropriate one?
