Evidence of meeting #6 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bac.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Solomon, I'm new to this committee, but not new to law enforcement. In British Columbia, there used to be a very effective counterattack program. It was very effective, if I might say so myself. It went on for a long time, and is still perhaps there; I'm not aware.
Would you look at the costs of increased prosecutions or charges, the court costs, administrative costs, and then compare that with the same amount of money being spent on counterattack, education, stricter enforcement of what exists? Have you looked at that, and have you come to the conclusion, still, that what you're proposing would be more beneficial?
Legal Director, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
All of the reviews of the scientific evidence on traffic safety measures that do the most amount of good rank lowering the blood alcohol level extremely highly. So sobriety checkpoints, if well publicized, with lots of media attention, do have a significant deterrent impact, but a 0.05 BAC would appear to be the second most effective measure. The most effective measure in driving down impaired driving deaths and injuries is random breath testing. A lower blood alcohol level is number two, from all of the reviews of the literature.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
It seems to me the weight of opinion is somewhat equally divided.
Legal Director, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
In the scientific literature it's not.
Conservative
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have three questions.
I would like to know if the toxicology section of the Centre of Forensic Sciences is suggesting that we opt for a reduction in blood alcohol level from 0.08% to 0.05% under the Criminal Code.
Assistant Section Head, Toxicology, Centre of Forensic Sciences, Toxicology Section, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario
It is not our role to suggest policy. My opinion is strictly a scientific opinion. The presentation I made today just outlines what the scientific studies show, and that is that impairment becomes significant at a BAC of 50, and then continues from then forward.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Thank you for your caution. It has nevertheless led us to a clear statement.
My second question is for the witnesses from MADD.
Of all of the witnesses who have appeared until now—and there must be some 15 if memory serves me well—only two have held the same point of view as you. You obviously want us to decrease the limit from 0.08% to 0.05% under the Criminal Code, and I understand your perspective. However, the people who have spent some time studying these issues, both organizations responsible for law enforcement as well as scientists, claim that the most effective measure is the immediate suspension of the person's driver's licence. This is what some provinces do. We are talking about an administrative reality here.
We have heard that hard core drinkers are few in number but are responsible for a large number of accidents. Therefore, I do not understand the logic of your argument. You say that for them, this is a deterrence measure. Why would people who do not respect the regulations when the level is 0.08% suddenly be convinced to respect them if the level is reduced to 0.05%? Contrary to what you have stated, the statistics do not lead us to conclude that there are more traffic accidents related to impaired driving.
I will let you react to that and I will be happy to listen to your arguments.
Legal Director, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
Thank you.
We've addressed those issues in an article that we've published in the international journal Injury Prevention, and we've published in the Criminal Law Quarterly. The reviews of the research literature are quite clear and they are consistent: lowering blood alcohol levels is extremely effective in deterring impaired driving. That's been the experience of every country that has lowered its blood alcohol level.
The other thing we should be aware of is that the vast majority of other countries around the world have made it an offence to drive with a blood alcohol level of 0.05. I refer to a chart on page 5 of my submission.
Concerning the issue of the hardcore drinking driver, there is a great deal of mythology. Not that many studies have been done about the drinking history of people who are killed in impaired driving crashes. The one study that has been done, a comprehensive study by someone called Baker, in the United States, indicated that even though hardcore drinking drivers make the most impaired driving trips, only about a third of the people who are killed or responsible for fatal crashes are hardcore drinking drivers. The majority of impaired driving deaths and injuries appear in this country to be among what are called heavy episodic drinkers. A typical example is the 16- to 25-year-old male. This group represents 13% of the population but 32% of the traffic injuries. The idea that our problem is limited to hardcore drinking drivers simply doesn't appear to be borne out.
The other thing is that two studies that have been done on the impact of lowering blood alcohol levels, one in Sweden and the other in Australia, indicated that the reductions in the number of people with very high blood alcohol levels was greater when you lowered the blood alcohol level, in Sweden from 0.05 to 0.02 and in Australia from 0.08 to 0.05.
Maybe the problem is with the people you're inviting to be witnesses. I'd like to see more scientists invited and more research people invited, and fewer people who represent particular interests.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Very well. Do I have time for a final question?
Mr. Marples, you seem to be saying that there are inconsistencies between subsections 259(1) and 259(3) of the Criminal Code. I would like you to remind us what the specific change is that you would like to see made to the code.
General Counsel, Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corp.
It's subsection 259(1.2), which prescribes a minimum waiting period before offenders are eligible to participate in a provincial alcohol ignition interlock program. The minimum waiting period is three months for a first offender, ranging up to 12 months for a third and subsequent offender. If the federal Criminal Code were amended by repealing that provision, it would enable impaired driving offenders to get on a provincial interlock program as soon as possible. I think it would go a long way towards closing the gap that seems to have arisen in the research, which suggests that the longer the licence suspension or revocation period, the greater the likelihood that people will not come back into the system of legal licensing and control.
Bear in mind I'm not suggesting for one second that the federal driving prohibition order be rescinded. I'm talking about the waiting time that would allow people, even though they're subject to a driving prohibition order, to participate in an interlock program.
Conservative
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all for coming.
Professor Solomon, on the point that Mr. Marples has raised, from your paper and the positions you've taken in the past--Mr. Murie, you may be answering this too--you appear to be in agreement that we should look again at reducing the waiting period that people have to achieve in order to get on the interlock program.
Is that correct?
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Murie, can I ask you, have you taken a specific position, that is, if it's a conviction of a first offence, would you want them to spend any period of time before they could go on the interlock, or could the judge order it immediately, if we made the proper amendment? Or would you see them being non-suspended from driving for, say, 30 days?
Chief Executive Officer, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
We would see that as long as they were in compliance with an alcohol interlock program, they could spend their whole prohibition period on the alcohol interlock. Basically, the federal government would still have their...if they drove without an interlock in their vehicle, it would still be driving while disqualified under the Criminal Code. If they have the interlock on their vehicle, we would be fine with that.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Marples, what's the current monthly cost of being on the program?
General Counsel, Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corp.
If you put it in terms that offenders can readily understand, it's about the price of a drink a day to be on the program, so we're talking in terms of approximately $105 per month.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Would those costs go down if it had a more widespread use, or is that pretty well a fixed cost?
General Counsel, Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corp.
There's some likelihood that the costs would go down, but this is one area where the costs have not really risen appreciably over the last decade. The last cost increase was about 10 years ago, and it put the cost of an interlock program at about $90 a month. If you figure from $90 to $105 over 10 years, that's a pretty good track record, which I would challenge anyone else in the entire country to match.
Having said that, I think there are, obviously, economies of scale. There's certainly the potential for that, yes.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Can you give us a breakdown in terms how much of the $100 is administrative cost and how much is the actual capital cost of the device and the installation?
