Evidence of meeting #11 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
You made a point about the need for the prosecutor to be involved at an earlier stage in planning. Could you expand on that because I didn't understand the significance?
Insp Don Perron
Yes, when we plan large investigations, when we target organized crime, obviously we go through a process of planning the investigation. Sometimes our lead into starting an investigation may be something that has a lead that we would be consulting with federal prosecutors on. As we progress through the investigation, sometimes it may turn to guns and to other matters that become provincial jurisdiction matters. You end up getting two prosecuting entities providing advice, and it really comingles, the planning and where we end up. For us, in policing, if we could establish from the onset who would be the prosecuting body, to provide us consistent advice throughout the project, it would be extremely beneficial for us.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Just from our perspective as a legislative committee, we're not talking about legislation here, we're talking about a cooperative arrangement between the federal Attorney General and the provincial Attorney General?
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Froese, I want to go back to you for just a quick question. On the concept of dropping the amount that has to be reported, from the current $10,000 figure to the lower amount, if we were to do that, who would we include in the need to report?
Senior Managing Director, Froese Forensic Partners Ltd.
I think the levels are about right for who is reporting now, but if you wanted to expand it to, for example, builders, construction companies, dealing in cash, you have a chance of expanding it to deal with both the underground economy and organized crime. The limit might be something like $2,000 in cash for that, and if you were doing hotels, it might be $500 in cash, or something along those lines.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay, I understand. Thanks.
On witness protection, I sat in that committee when we were doing that review in 2007 and we were pushing you at that time. The RCMP were being much too diplomatic, in my opinion, in not pushing the government enough on funding.
I have two questions. Have you pushed the government to set aside a specific amount outside of your regular budget? And whether you have done that or not, is there an amount that should be spent at the federal level, not at the provincial level--we'll leave that for a moment--that should be spent beyond the $7 million, which is the average now? I know you have a draft report coming, but have you done an analysis as to what is an appropriate amount, a necessary amount, in Canada at the federal level?
C/Supt Thomas Bucher
In the absence of finalizing that draft document, I'd be hesitant in putting a figure on the table. I can tell you that we--
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Let me stop you then, because we are running out of time. When will the report be ready?
Conservative
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for coming today. My first question is actually a continuation of where Mr. Comartin was coming from. We recently had the justice minister come to a round table on justice and public safety in our riding, and we heard from various groups. The primary group that I want to talk about is municipal police forces. One of the problems with municipal police forces is not that they need incentives to do their job, but one of the items, of course, surrounding police department budgets has to do with everything from victims groups to community policing groups.
I wonder, Inspector Perron, when you talk about the amounts of money that are derived from the proceeds of crime, if you could just tell us, for the lay people out there who might be reading the results of this meeting, whether the province gets a return on any of that money that the federal government receives through, let's say, narcotics or drugs.
Insp Don Perron
Yes, there is a legislative regime that talks about the sharing of forfeited proceeds, and based on the contribution of the various parties or stakeholders or police partners to resolving that forfeiture, they would be assigned a certain percentage. It's outlined in the forfeited property sharing regulations of the Seized Property Management Act. The formula is 90%, 50%, or 10%, and they will share based on what they contributed to that. That is determined by the prosecutor. What is shared is called the net proceeds; that's after seized property management has taken the moneys for expenses they've incurred while managing the assets while the case was being prosecuted.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
And generally what's the percentage of that, which would be basic administration, just off the top of your head--20%? Let's say a local police department is involved in a grow operation. Let's say the assets, after they've all been accumulated, are $1 million. Let's say there were various levels of joint forces operations and the prosecutor takes into account how many OPP, municipal, and perhaps RCMP...and then of course there is administration. So out of the $1 million total assets, what would you think the local police department would get?
Insp Don Perron
You cannot directly benefit from a forfeiture. The vehicles in place to reinvest into policing are the grant programs; all police services in the province can apply to the grant programs. I would say that on average about 50% of what is forfeited and is being managed by the federal government usually goes back to the province. The sharing regulations do not permit the federal and the municipal governments to enter into an agreement, only the provincial government.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
So the municipal police department then goes to the provincial government through a grant program for community policing or something like that.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you.
And the numbers you gave Mr. Comartin are numbers over a five-year period?
Insp Don Perron
That's correct. That's how much we believe we directly assist in forfeitures.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Okay.
Mr. Froese, we heard from you with regard to the difficulty in finding out who owns what. As members of Parliament we have people who tell us so-and-so down the street has no visible means of income; we phone the local police department, if it's appropriate, and say, “You need to speak to so-and-so. They have some information for you.”
In your experience, what transpires once the police department gets that information?
Senior Managing Director, Froese Forensic Partners Ltd.
It would depend on the intake officer and what the situation is, but my guess is they don't have the resources to follow up on a lot of those. If it's pretty serious... That's more a question for the police, and Don Perron would be a better person to ask.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
What I meant, in your experience... You do the forensic audit.
Inspector Perron, could you add? You're the best entity to answer that question, because the average person... I have a police background, so I understand the complications. What tools do the police have to investigate these types of reports?
