Justice Committee on April 20th, 2010

[Prof. John Martin]

I don't think anyone is disputing the need to focus on rehabilitation with youth. I think we're being wholly irresponsible, though, when we send youth and adults for these short, brief sentences where there's not even enough time to conduct a diagnosis, let alone engage in a treatment plan. We'll do this 10, 20, 30 times, and there's never been an attempt or an opportunity to engage in any treatment.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

But you mentioned something important, treatment I think being associated with somebody who is sick or suffering some sort of disturbance that has nothing necessarily to do with the crime. We're told by police chiefs in Edmonton that a lot of the people we're sending to prisons are people with emotional problems and mental illness. Prison is not necessarily the place to send them, no?

[Prof. John Martin]

We have an enormous problem with sending mentally ill people to jail. That's been going on since the 1980s when we entered into the de-institutionalization of mental health facilities and we dumped these people on the street. We're still paying the price for that. For the most part, the system is not really set up to deal with the mentally ill, but in some cases that's where they are being sent.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

It's where they end up.

[Prof. John Martin]

The issue that I would add to that, though, is that there's little comfort to victims and families who have lost loved ones when people are sent back into the community untreated and who have not had an opportunity to engage in rehabilitation. I don't think we want to talk about sentencing in terms of increasing the sentence necessarily as a punishment, but as an opportunity to engage in rehabilitation, which supposedly is the mandate of the corrections system.

The average sentence in this country is 30 days. Almost 30% of people are sentenced to two weeks or less. You don't engage in treatment when you're sending people in and out, in and out, 20, 40, or 60 times.

So we're spinning our wheels and accomplishing nothing with the status quo.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

You're saying that the average sentence is 30 days for criminal offences?

[Prof. John Martin]

Correct.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Okay.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Murphy for one minute.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Briefly, on the reporting in the United States and other countries, do you follow a benchmark that you need to meet in each country, or is there a benchmark...? Is it universal, this method of reporting crimes like this? Could you give us a little insight into it?

[Mia Dauvergne]

Are you asking if it is universal across different countries?

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

We often hear comparisons with the United States, the EU, etc.

[Mia Dauvergne]

There are particular offences that can be better compared than others; they are relatively few. We don't generally do a lot of overall types of comparisons because the methodologies do differ.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemay, are you next?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Pardon me, Mr. Chairman. My colleague has a question. I'll speak afterwards.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Are there any statistics on repeat offenders?

[Craig Grimes]

There's no recent data on repeat offenders from Statistics Canada. There is a study from about ten years ago that was a birth cohort analysis, but there's no recent study on recidivism.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Are there any on young offenders who reoffend?

[Craig Grimes]

No.

Other than the birth cohort study.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

So to know that, we have to rely on the impression of judges or lawyers who practise in those courts.

[Craig Grimes]

Doing work on recidivism is something that is on our agenda. It's something we want to prepare statistics for. We have a project right now that's looking at improving how we identify people, because the real issue in doing studies on repeat offenders is making sure that you identify those people correctly, that you produce accurate statistics. That's the first order of business before we produce any new numbers on repeat offenders and repeat contact with the criminal courts.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It would be very interesting to have statistics on repeat offences.

The page where it states “Upcoming releases”, shows the following: “Youth court statistics, 2007/2008 and 2008/2009”. When do you expect to have those statistics?

[Craig Grimes]

They'll be released in July, and with that release there will be the ability to do additional work on the criminal organization offences.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I won't conceal the fact that we would very much like to have them. You'll no doubt be coming back because very soon we'll be studying Bill C-4, the bill to amend the Young Offenders Act.

This isn't clear. Let's go to page 5 of your document, which states the following: “Youth (12 to 17 years) accused of gang-related homicides, Canada, 1998-2008”. As I am a criminal defence lawyer, I don't like the word “accused”. What do you mean by that expression? Where does the word “accused” come from?

[Mia Dauvergne]

It would be any person against whom the police have laid a charge or have recommended that a charge be laid. In this case the person would be 12 to 17 years of age.