Justice Committee on April 20th, 2010

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Well, you should just know that, shouldn't you?

[Mia Dauvergne]

Do you mean the exact number?

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Just make it up. We wouldn't know the difference.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

This is for Mr. Martin. A roundabout discussion about what you think would be.... I have no quarrel with the debate that if a person is put away, they're not going to commit a crime. Your evidence seems very heartfelt, from an amassing of information, so I'm going to ask you a general question. Do you think that extra time in prison does an offender any good? Would that offender come back and be more of a threat than the picture you're painting of a sort of indoor, outdoor, revolving-door system of incarceration that doesn't do any good either?

[Prof. John Martin]

It can do a world of good for offenders who want the help. Let me quickly tell you, my brother-in-law is a lifer; he committed first-degree murder. He was eligible at 15 years with a “faint hope”. The two people he was co-convicted with, who were much more seriously involved in it than he was, got out at 17 years. He stayed in another two and a half years, because he thought the system had more to offer him. He's out and he's working as a chef at a golf course now. I speak to him a lot about this. He says for those who want it, it is there. But that's not the majority of people.

So sometimes that extra time can be extremely beneficial.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

You don't seem to be fearful of wading into topics, so what do you think of the pardon situation? Should they be allowed? You read the Prime Minister's comments on this over the weekend, perhaps.

[Prof. John Martin]

I would encourage the continuation of pardons for offenders who have committed property crimes, maybe small-level drug crimes in their youth, who have made mistakes and carried on with their life. I would not grant it to the most serious cases that are for public discussion right now under any circumstances.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We will go to Mr. Dechert for another five minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Professor Martin, can you describe for us the percentage of youth of the ages 12 to 17 years as a percentage of the general population today compared to that percentage, say, back in the sixties? I think you mentioned there was a higher percentage of young people who perhaps commit more of these sorts of offences.

[Prof. John Martin]

My understanding is that it's almost 20% less than it was in the sixties.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay. What are your sources for that information?

[Prof. John Martin]

That is just using basic demographic data that has been accessed from Statistics Canada, delivered through the census.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

Certain senior police officers in my region, Peel region in the Toronto area, have suggested to me that there is sometimes an underreporting of offences by police, especially young offenders, because they feel that the time they are required to put into investigate and prosecute the crime versus the sentence that will result under the Youth Criminal Justice Act just deters them from following through. So in many cases with repeat offenders they won't bother to process the crime. Does that make any sense to you? Have you seen anything in your studies that would suggest that is true?

[Prof. John Martin]

Anecdotally, I hear that all the time from police officers. They will confiscate the marijuana, the alcohol, and they won't proceed formally. It takes too much time, and it's extremely frustrating because they know ahead that all of the processing is for naught—nothing is going to happen; nothing will come of it.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So that would suggest that some of these crime statistics we are looking at are not entirely accurate as to what is actually happening out there.

[Prof. John Martin]

Right, they will miss that. What they will also miss is that there are many more alternative strategies out there than there used to be for informal resolution, so it never actually gets necessarily documented as a criminal offence.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you.

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Yes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Could I defer to my colleague Mr. Norlock?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Professor.

You were sort of cut off when you were comparing British Columbia to Washington state, but I think we got that message.

I just need to ask you this, because it's probably very close to the end. One of the ways people like me might want to ignore a person's statistics or your message is to bring into question its source. So you mentioned the difference between crime rates in the sixties compared to the seventies compared to today. You gave us a lot of your opinion. What do you base those opinions on? What are your sources?

[Prof. John Martin]

I stay current with the statistics, with the published research that comes out. I'm constantly devouring the reports from the RCMP, from Justice, from the Solicitor General, and this is the material I work with to go into the classroom and to go to public sessions to explain what is happening.

I do obviously have an opinion. I've been writing opinion pieces in newspapers; I've published some 500 of them in the last 12 years, so I wouldn't deny I do have an opinion.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Is that opinion based, do you believe, on your ideology, or is it based on the preponderance of professional studies in your capacity as a person who disseminates that information to willing minds such as students?

[Prof. John Martin]

It has to be based on the evidence, on the research. I would be eaten alive if it wasn't. I'm a bit of a pariah as it is for not being a left-leaning criminologist, and if I make one misstep, as I occasionally do, the sharks circle me, and they're quite merciless.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

When you mentioned the difference between Washington state and British Columbia, you were somewhat cut off as to the reasoning why you think there is a difference in the preponderance of drug grow operations. Could you elaborate a little bit more on that?