Justice Committee on April 29th, 2010

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I also noted the anomaly about the Pacific region. It goes to prove what I think we found going across the country, that presentation is different in each part of the country.

For my final question, with respect to comparative analysis with other jurisdictions, is there any other study on any similar type of...? I think of American RICO statutes, etc. Is there anything comparative?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Monsieur Ménard, seven minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

There is not so much a rumour but rather a perception concerning the influence of organized crime within the prisons—and this may be due to American movies. We are given the impression that members of organized crime groups have a tendency to take control of what happens inside the prisons.

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

You're correct that the potential for taking control inside prisons and exerting influence is a primary concern for our security intelligence people, as well as the safe and secure management of our correctional facilities. We're always very vigilant about that, and I'm aware that other people from our service have made presentations to this committee that have probably made attestations to the amount of effort that's put towards ensuring that they don't express that kind of influence to the extent that they have control. We are ongoing in our vigilance in terms of various strategies, approaches, and techniques in managing for the eventuality of that or the potential for that and in minimizing those influences within our correctional environments. This is a common theme in most correctional jurisdictions internationally as well.

You're correct. In the United States they have been engaged in this activity much more than we have in the past. There is some variability in our organization. This is a fairly new phenomenon in terms of the magnitude of it within our own correctional environments in the recent decade, for example. To reiterate, it is a prime concern for risk management. This group is a unique sub-population within our broader correctional custodial populations and requires particular attention. This is the primary reason that we did focused research on this group, and we will continue to do so to ensure that the kind of influence they could exert in terms of destabilizing the environment and continuing on with criminal activity, both in the institutional environment, in terms of recruitment and other kinds of activities, and extending out into the broader community.... We're continuing to work on this and to invest considerable resources. We know we've had, for years, a changing offender profile, and this is a significant aspect of our characteristic in terms of organized crime and gang affiliations in our population. We've been very actively engaged in enhancing our security intelligence functions in order to account for that.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Does this make you segregate them from the rest of the prison population, so that there is less contact?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

There are many approaches to handling the issue. It depends on the group or the individual. We don't use one particular approach for all. That can be one option, and it is one option that is used in certain circumstances in terms of separation or displacement to that population. That comes with other impacts inside the prison environments. We're very cautious about those kinds of things, and there are many strategies.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Currently, there are rival gangs in prison, particularly in Quebec. I imagine this is also the case elsewhere in Canada, but I am most familiar with what happens in Quebec, obviously. I know that we take care that they not be in contact, otherwise there are fights, and even attempted murders targeting prisoners from the other groups. Could you tell us a bit about what you do to separate these groups?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

Within the correctional environment, there has been, as mentioned, some growth in the numbers and also the variety of various groups and organizations that are affiliated with organized crime and gangs. It's become very complex in terms of managing that population. Most of the strategies that are used are very intelligence-led. Compatibility is a primary concern in terms of assignment for a security-level placement and location in institutions and for control of movement. It's dependent on a very thorough threat-risk analysis for those groups or those individuals, and placement considerations, according to their security needs, are done appropriately.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Have you found that there are attempts made by the criminal organizations in the institutions to recruit young people who come, for example, from street gangs, or perhaps attempts to recruit from the general prison population?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

We've had reports of attempts to do those sorts of things. There have been descriptions of environments in which others have been approached and recruited. Some will have made claims that this is where they were actually recruited. Having seen that, we're aware of that potentiality. We're reducing those opportunities for recruitment, particularly for those in the population who are more vulnerable to becoming engaged in those activities. We're also providing opportunities to disengage from those activities. Again, it is a very complex environment in terms of managing compatibility, the intentions of others, and the influences—imagine the interpersonal influences--on those offenders. Reducing their ability to recruit and direct others is a major case management function as well as a security function in our organization. It requires quite a lot of vigilant surveillance as well as direct supervision and intervention on our part.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I imagine you should—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Motiuk, thank you for being here.

I'm going to go on a different tack, although those were, I think, very important questions from Mr. Ménard.

I wasn't quite clear about the studies. I'm interested in the rate of recidivism between the two groups. If I understood, from reading your brief and from what you said today, it's still too early for us to get any kind of accurate assessment of the rate of recidivism for the organized crime group.

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

That was a third study, which I am aware is being undertaken by our research branch. It's to follow up on post-release, shall we say. It's an outcome study, which investigates criminal reoffending post the period of incarceration and sentence expiry. I'm not aware of what the rates are yet for that group. However, we would expect it to be quite low, given that our overall rates of reoffending while under supervision are quite low to begin with. As a group, these people require that kind of longitudinal research to see how they fare in the long run.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Dr. Motiuk, let me stop you for a moment. In terms of what you would expect and why you say that, I can see two possible explanations. One is that the organized crime group members are rehabilitated and don't commit further crimes. The other is that they're not rehabilitated, but they are more sophisticated and are less likely to be caught and convicted again. What is the thinking as to why you don't expect the recidivism rate to be as high as that of their counterparts?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

I think if you re-examine what we know traditionally about the predictors of criminal reoffending, these individuals don't present a large volume of those things, such as unstable employment, family dysfunction, and mental health challenges. They will fall outside the ambit of, perhaps, detection. We don't know. Maybe they do desist.

That's why we require that kind of long-term, focused study to disentangle those two areas they are hypothesizing. We could hypothesize that they are rehabilitated. It would appear that they are. But how do you confirm that? How do you actually prove that, other than by the fact that they don't become involved again with the criminal justice system? That's the only measure we usually use: an officially recorded new conviction for crime.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I suppose it would be a breach of their parole if they were associated with other members of the original organized crime gang. Is there any other way of assessing whether they are involved in criminal activity but are escaping detection? I'm really asking about the methodology being used to follow them.

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

One could approach them to volunteer to participate in research. Whether that would happen and how valid that would be is another matter.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Could you address what methodology is being used? Is it just subsequent convictions?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

That is the methodology being used. It will traditionally be used, simply because it's so rarely accessible to us.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

When do you expect the results of that study?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

I expect they will be out this year.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

I want to go back to when you categorized them when they first came into the institutions. Can you give us any indication of what percentage were from traditional organized crime gangs versus the newer street gangs? Do you make that kind of breakdown?