Justice Committee on May 13th, 2010

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Just to better say that this is your concentration, the other day the minister made it clear that he feels this act visits specific deterrents on young offenders, on youth. While I understand what he's saying, what I think you're saying is that these persistent offenders present a public security risk, a public safety risk, and should be incarcerated with a view to programming having an effect. I may have missed it, but I don't think I heard you say that the effect of this bill, further incarceration, will be a specific deterrent.

In fact, I thought the theme of your talk—correct me if I'm wrong—was that this small group of persistent young offenders is deterrent-proof. They're very difficult to deter, specifically. Is that not right?

[Dr. Tim Croisdale]

They are because they've resisted everything and continue to resist, but there's also a very low certainty of incarceration. So without that certainty of incarceration, you're going to have low deterrence. I think having a more certain incarceration will help some deterrence.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

My impression of your testimony is that you paint a picture of a fairly intelligent--which may be too strong a word--savvy offender who will only be specifically deterred if he understands he will be removed from society. Yet what we heard across Canada is that youth in particular, because we have a separate act for them, are unable to form, as we do in civil laws, the same sort of mature, specific intent for anything. That's certainly the case in civil law. You can't be liable in many events because of that diminished ability to form an intent. So square that for me.

[Dr. Tim Croisdale]

I agree that any type of offender is not highly intelligent or complex.

Can you restate your second point?

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

We heard across the country that the specific case in youth is that they're unable, diminished--I won't say capacity, but they're not adults. They don't have the same ability to form intent. That's the point of having a separate YCJA, having civil law not creep into their liability. So if that's the case, how can they have this specific intent and be quite savvy in the system as it is? How can the specific deterrents the minister speaks of work?

[Dr. Tim Croisdale]

They may not have specific intent, but they are creatures of opportunity. They're impulsive, so they may not engage in more complex crimes that require absolute intent and planning. They're more...

Sorry, time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Yes. Thanks.

We'll go to Mr. Dechert for five minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for being here today and sharing your views with us.

On the point my honourable friend was just raising, I think we also heard—if my memory serves me correctly—from a number of witnesses, especially police officers but also from others, that a number of organized crime organizations such as gangs actively recruit young people. They do this specifically because they know there's a different regime for young offenders and that they will get lighter sentences. There have been many cases of young offenders who have said they wanted to experience this type of offence, and they knew if they did it before they turned a certain age, they'd get a lighter sentence. So I think there's a range of views on that.

Specifically, Professor Croisdale, I wanted to refer to the paper you co-authored entitled "Persistent Criminality and Career Lengths”, which I believe was published in January 2007 in a publication known as Crime & Delinquency. You mentioned in that that some of the data you reviewed, and other studies that have been done to which you referred, showed that criminal behaviour as measured by arrests was found to increase dramatically prior to sanctions and was found to be considerably lower after incarceration than before incarceration.

I wonder if you could explain that a little more fully for us and tell us what your view is on the impact of longer incarceration terms on persistent offenders.

[Dr. Tim Croisdale]

Quite obviously, persistent offenders begin offending and increase their offending activities to a point where they're increasing at a peak, and that's the cause of the incarceration. There's less offending afterwards, hence the effect of some incarceration. I think a lot more studies need to be done. There's really a lack of studies on the effect of incarceration and future offending, but we have seen in a couple of instances that there is an effect. There may be re-offending afterwards, but it's at a lower rate. I think in that case, it was half the rate that it was for youth offenders prior to incarceration.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay, thank you.

Did your study examine young offenders who start with a relatively less serious crime and then escalate over time to more serious or more violent crimes? Did you look at that?

[Dr. Tim Croisdale]

It included young offenders charged with any type of crime. We didn't focus on cases that increased in severity.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Can you give us any guidance on patterns of behaviour? Do young people who start with a relatively violent offence tend to progress to even more violent offences as their career continues?

[Dr. Tim Croisdale]

We didn't look at the types of offence over the career. What we found in the data is that prior to incarceration in a youth facility, those who committed violent offences had far fewer offences prior to incarceration than those who were repeat offenders.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Did many of the persistent offenders in your study participate in rehabilitation programs in the early years, when they were perhaps incarcerated for shorter terms in the earlier stages of their careers?

[Dr. Tim Croisdale]

That we don't know. We don't know what was done in the community. We just had arrest data on them and then the actual incarceration with the state-level youth correctional facility.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

You stated earlier that in Canada at least there are significant rehabilitation programs within our penal system. What would you expect to find in that regard with respect to longer terms of incarceration; that is, the longer they're in the programs. What impact would you expect that to have on the rate of recidivism once they're released?

[Dr. Tim Croisdale]

I expect that more and better treatment is going to reduce re-arrests. It's a negative relationship, so you're going to have fewer arrests and less recidivism with more treatment and better treatment.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay.

Did your findings in the B.C. study differ significantly from the findings in the California study?

[Dr. Tim Croisdale]

No. The B.C. studies were looking at just exploring the huge amount of data for what is prolific offending, to a point that I recommended we should define “prolific offending” for research purposes in British Columbia. But again, subsequent studies and looking at networks and mapping networks of co-offending are consistent with everything you keep seeing elsewhere.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll move on to Monsieur Petit, for five minutes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Ms. Goyette and Ms. Gaudreault.

Ms. Goyette, you were asked a question earlier about the statistics you are going to send us, I think. You know about the Uniform Crime Reporting Program. It is done by Statistics Canada, and it provides information about young offenders, among other things.

Did you know that in the uniform crime reports, anything referred to as drug trafficking is not included? Did you know that all drug-related crimes are not included in the uniform crime reports?

[Michèle Goyette]

No, I didn't know that.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Did you know that no crime relating to offences in the Criminal Code or the highway traffic code, for example leaving the scene, impaired driving, dangerous driving causing death, is counted in the uniform crime reports?

I would refer you now to another document. Do you have the "General Social Survey on Victimization" at hand?

[Michèle Goyette]

Can I ask you a question?

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Yes.