We all do.
Evidence of meeting #23 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #23 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
A voice
We all do.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Monsieur LeBlanc, you mentioned the need for additional resources if this goes through. Have you done any analysis of how many more youth offenders will be incarcerated, just in your province, and how many more jail cells or incarceration locations you will need as a province?
12:10 p.m.
Executive Director, New Brunswick Association of Social Workers
The short answer is no, we didn't do an analysis. However, if this is passed, the result will be more punitive, which will result in more youth being in prison. As we can see from the Ashley Smith report, this young person was transferred all across, right? I think it's fair to say there will be an increase somewhere, and that would mean--
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Could you even give me an estimate on a percentage basis? Is it going to go up 5%, 10%, the incarceration?
Mr. Richard?
12:10 p.m.
Ombudsman and Child and Youth Advocate, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
I couldn't give an estimate. I think that's too hard for me to do, and I'm not that kind of researcher. But I do want to confirm for the chair, there were consultations. I was there. Mr. Bilodeau, who was there as well, was facilitating, so I'm clear on those two.
On the third point, someone in my office spoke to a Justice Canada official two days ago, and it was confirmed to him that there is a report, but it has not been published or been made public.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Ms. Toutant, I'm asking you the same question.
Is it possible to determine how many offenders there could be in Quebec's prisons if this federal bill were adopted?
12:10 p.m.
Criminologist, Youth program, Institut Philippe-Pinel de Montréal
I don't think I can give you a figure. Moreover, in actual fact, I don't think adult sentences have been extensively used. That's one of the reasons why we wonder why the act currently in effect has to be amended.
Earlier, I spoke a little about the fact that it's called Sébastien's Law, to illustrate a situation in which the court decided to give an adolescent an adult sentence. It should be recalled that, in Quebec, the minimum age is 16, not 14. I'm very sensitive to the argument by the lady who talked about fairness for all children in Canada. In the other provinces, I believe an adolescent can be subject to an adult sentence at the age of 14. I believe you're aware of that. In Quebec, it's at the age of 16, because Quebec's National Assembly made that decision. There is the possibility, and, in my view, it must be limited as much as possible.
I just have one brief comment to make. I'm very concerned when authorities say they may perhaps place inmates who are not adults in a separate wing of the adult prison. In other words, they're going to subject young persons to that. We're going to place them in adult institutions, but set them up in a separate wing. It is very important to recall that a rehabilitation environment is not a detention environment. We detain youths in order to rehabilitate them, but it's not just a detention environment. And it's not because they're going to be separated from the others that they will be treated differently. I don't know whether you understand the distinction. It's very important in my mind.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you. I'm going to share the time allotted to me with Mr. Dechert.
Mr. Richard, we have very little time. You're the ombudsman in New Brunswick, isn't that correct? Are there a lot of provincial ombudsmen in Canada apart from you?
12:15 p.m.
Ombudsman and Child and Youth Advocate, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
Yes, there are ombudsmen in all the provinces. In Quebec, it's called the "protecteur du citoyen". They have them in all the provinces, except Prince Edward Island and the Yukon.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Earlier you raised an extremely important point, and I believe we've been hearing the same argument from the start. You and the witnesses as a whole always use the term "mental illness". You talk about a youth who is suffering from a mental illness.
Does that mean that when the judges in New Brunswick send people to prison rather than to a psychiatric asylum?
12:15 p.m.
Ombudsman and Child and Youth Advocate, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
That definitely happens. The research findings are clear: increasingly, not only the young population, but also the adult population—
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
But I'm talking about what happens in your province. My time is very limited. Does that mean that, when a psychiatrist tells New Brunswick judges that a youth is suffering from a mental illness, they send that young person to prison rather than to a psychiatric asylum?
12:15 p.m.
Ombudsman and Child and Youth Advocate, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
It happens across Canada, sir, not just in New Brunswick.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
I'm talking about in New Brunswick. You have the expertise with regard to what happens there.
12:15 p.m.
Ombudsman and Child and Youth Advocate, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
I work right across Canada; I have colleagues across Canada. I'm not just a child advocate, but also an ombudsman, or "protecteur du citoyen". My field unfortunately extends from the cradle to the grave. But, since there is a shortage of mental health services—that was clearly established by Mr. Sapers as well in the case of the federal prisons—there are increasing numbers of inmates suffering from mental health problems in our prisons. The findings are clear: we are unable to offer the services they need, as a result of which they reoffend.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Have you intervened personally? You have the right as ombudsman—the act allows you to do so—to intervene in court and to say that a young person won't go to prison, but rather to a psychiatric asylum. Have you intervened personally in a number of cases, and what was the result?
12:15 p.m.
Ombudsman and Child and Youth Advocate, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
Yes, and the judges listened to us when we intervened. Yes, absolutely, lawyers from my office and myself have appeared in youth courts, in particular, to make that kind of recommendation.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Earlier, you cited an example that you had learned about. The Institut Philippe-Pinel de Montréal is a hospital. You subsequently talked about a court that you yourself had visited, the mental health court. You used that term—I don't know whether the translation was accurate—and you said you had visited a mental health court in Ottawa.
12:15 p.m.
Ombudsman and Child and Youth Advocate, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
It's a criminal court. It's a pilot project funded by the Department of Justice. I spent half a day there and I met the judge, the defence lawyers, the Crown prosecutors, social workers and other caseworkers in that court.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Were you satisfied with what you saw?
12:20 p.m.
Ombudsman and Child and Youth Advocate, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
The approach is multidisciplinary. Obviously, you first have to target the youths who have mental health disorders or acute behavioural disorders and direct them to services and treatment rather than proceed with their incarceration. I'm told it works.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
You say that, currently, even though the judges have a person suffering from mental illness before them, they send him to prison rather than to a psychiatric asylum.
12:20 p.m.
Ombudsman and Child and Youth Advocate, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
It must be understood that the same services don't exist at the same level in Canada. For example, in New Brunswick—I'm quite familiar with the situation in my province—there is a psychiatric hospital in Campbellton. There's also a psychiatric unit for young persons in Moncton, but, very often, there isn't enough room. There aren't any specialized services. Furthermore, we've recommended that a specialized centre for mental health and psychiatric services be established for youths in New Brunswick because our youths are currently being sent to Toronto and even to Portland, Maine, to another country, to obtain services at a very high cost. There often aren't enough services, and not even the right services in New Brunswick. That's an enormous concern for me.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
So if you had the services you referred to from the start and the money to provide them, would you feel that the current act is all right? If we really put the young people in the right place, that is in a psychiatric asylum rather than in prison, would you be in favour of the act?
