Evidence of meeting #24 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aboriginal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
The African Canadian Legal Clinic was here a couple of weeks ago. Juristat doesn't keep figures on anybody other than the aboriginal community. Everybody else is lumped in together.
Have you seen any studies--and I'm looking at academic studies at this point, or maybe government studies--that have isolated other populations other than the aboriginal population?
Program Director, Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto
I have not. Maybe some of my colleagues have.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
The comment I made about the increase is based on visiting the institutions and visually seeing increased numbers of racialized young people.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay--but that's anecdotal.
One of the things that has been troubling me, to pick up on perhaps some of the points that Mr. Wamback has been making, is that I'm trying to draw a conclusion that I wonder if any of you either support or oppose. We know that we are able to deal with the most violent youths--identified with murder and other really serious crimes--by moving them into adult sentencing. I have the impression, and I won't say it's any more than that, that there's another relatively small group--I know that Mr. Wamback won't agree with this, in terms of its size--that our courts would not consider treating as adults for sentencing purposes but the existing system is not able to cope with. A lot of these would be repeat offenders, starting off with less serious crimes and moving into more violent crimes before moving up to that final stage and going into the adult system.
So I guess I have two questions. One, if my perception is correct that there is that group, could you confirm that or deny it? Two, if you confirm it, are there any suggestions as to how we might deal with them from a legislative standpoint? That's if we should deal with them differently from what we are now.
Founder and Board Chair, Canadian Crime Victim Foundation
To answer your question on adult sentencing, Mr. Comartin, one of the greatest misconceptions in this country is the fact that an individual under 18 who commits a serious crime, first- or second-degree murder, in an adult sentence will spend a great length of time in a custodial environment. The reality is that they will spend a longer time in a custodial environment if they are sentenced as a youth than if they are sentenced as an adult.
Our concern with these particular individuals.... One of the committee members asked how many people we were talking about. I admit that we're not talking about a great number of people in this country who are under the age of 18 who commit these horrifically aberrant crimes. But we do not have the ability in this country, through our existing criminal law measures, to be able to deal effectively with them, to provide the appropriate sanctions to ensure that they have that rehabilitation that we all seem to want so much for violent youth.
The most important thing we represent is the people who have been on the receiving end of extreme violence, who see the murderers of their children back out on the street in less than 18 months--murderers who, in that particular 18-month period, have not been required to undergo any form of counselling or support or rehabilitation. They are back out on our streets, wearing a larger badge of courage, creating greater havoc in communities of young people.
That is our concern. That is why we are here today, to try to express our perspective and the perspective of millions of Canadians who are extremely frustrated with....
I support your position on aboriginal youth, about the overrepresentation of certain groups. That is a social issue that I hope one day I could work with you on to try to correct or resolve. It's the same with some people who are otherwise...but we have to be able to deal with that, and we can't.
NDP
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Most of the police services...and certainly when I worked in Calgary with the police service, we had what they called a “serious habitual offender comprehensive action plan”; it then got shortened. The comprehensive action piece was the most effective intervention we saw. It brought child welfare folks and education folks together.
We saw with those young people that they were persistent, but they were predominantly without any other supports in their community. When you were able to build those supports around them, you could actually see a change. That was the way the Calgary police became supportive of a program--I was actually with John Howard at the time--where we worked with those kids and did intensive intervention and support for them.
I don't think the current changes to the legislation will achieve that at all. I do think some of the suggestions around moral blameworthiness, and increased focus on rehabilitation, and increased focus on getting those kids out of that system and into a more appropriate service base is important. The difficulty is that most of those service bases have been underfunded. The stripping of resources in order to fund criminal justice responses has happened at the youth system and has happened at the adult system. I'm not sure you can achieve that through legislative change, except through the continued presumption of not having them come through the system, all the more so when you're talking about aboriginal young people.
Conservative
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.
I have a question that I'd like to pose to each of our four social workers, for want of a better phrase, if I may, but because of my time limits I'm going to ask you the unfair duty of just trying to answer with a yes or a no.
I'm going to read to you a statement that I find in the report on the National Invitational Symposium on Youth Justice Renewal, in which were participants from the Coalition on Community Safety, Health and Well-being, the Child Welfare League of Canada, and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. I'll ask you whether you agree with it. The statement is as follows:
The least intrusive measures may not be in the best interests of the young person, whereas very intrusive interventions may be the ones that will serve the young person best.
It says “may be the ones”.
Ms. Pate, do you agree or disagree?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Out of context, you can't agree or disagree with that, because certainly I've worked with many young people where we've had very structured, very supportive, very intrusive interventions that have not been involved in the judicial system at all and in fact have been very effective. So it depends on the context.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
You are not able to answer my question on whether you agree that the least intrusive measures may not be in the best interests of the young person, whereas very intrusive interventions may be the ones that will serve the young person best.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
No, I have answered your question. I just haven't been able to answer with a yes or no because you can't answer.... That's exactly the point of the Youth Criminal Justice Act, to have that discussion.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I'll ask Ms. Osmok, then.
Do you agree or disagree?
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Ontario
I have to respond the same way. The question has no context. I think you have to look at individuals. So in terms of answering with a one-word answer, I'm not able to do that.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
In fact, the statement does suggest an individualized report and suggests that very intrusive interventions may be the ones that will serve the young person best.
Do you agree or disagree?
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Ontario
I think we're talking at times about two different things as well. Again, the question can't be answered by a one-word answer, I'm sorry.
Conservative
Program Director, Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto
I guess the difficulty is, first, I don't know what “intrusive”.... Certainly, there are young people who will do a lot, if they're prepared to do it. It can be very intrusive, but I—
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I have to stop you there.
Ms. Knudsen, forgive me for asking this, but I wasn't sure if you were a lawyer or not.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Okay. You are an analyst and you have looked at existing subsection 29(2) of Bill C-4. Correct? That's the pretrial detention.
