Justice Committee on Nov. 4th, 2010

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'm also imagining that it must be somewhat stressful for the victims as well as for the convicted offenders. Is that a reasonable supposition?

[Kim Pate]

I would think so. Any situation that revisits the kind of harm that has involved a death would invoke that kind of stress.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

When you attend those parole hearings, you're attending as an advocate for the convicted offender. Is that correct?

[Kim Pate]

Yes, I would say I'm advocating. In some cases we're talking about situations that may involve some connection between the victim and the person who has been convicted of the murder, the woman. So it depends on the situation. Sometimes I've known all the parties before, sometimes not, and in a very few cases I'd be observing. Usually I'd be there as the assistant to the woman.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Have you ever attended a parole hearing for a convicted murderer where you were advocating for the victim against release?

[Kim Pate]

I've never been asked by a victim to go in in that capacity, no.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

But I would expect you would have some degree of empathy for the victims who are there to advocate against release of the offender. Is that correct?

[Kim Pate]

There's a presumption that they're there to advocate against. Some are and some are not, though. Some are there in support of the growth and what the individual has done, so it depends.

In only one of the circumstances I can think of was the victim actively asking that the person not be released.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

So let's talk about that one. My expectation is that it would be rather stressful for a victim who wanted to oppose release not to know if or when a parole application might be made. Would you agree with me that this would be somewhat stressful for the victim?

[Kim Pate]

If that were the case. They are notified when the parole applications are made.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Correct, but under the existing system, of course, there is no timeframe within which the offender must make the application, so the victim simply has to sit out there and wait until the offender makes the application. Am I correct about that?

[Kim Pate]

Yes. I'm not aware of it being an issue, but yes, that would be the process.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'm suggesting to you that if I lost a loved one and was a victim of a murder and felt that the murderer ought not to be given parole and the 15-year mark rolled around, I'd probably be checking my mail every day waiting to see if there was a parole application. I'm sure you have enough experience with victims to understand how that might weigh on them. Do you think so?

[Kim Pate]

It may very well weigh on them, especially if they don't know the procedure. I think there have been increased efforts to ensure that they know those procedures and understand the process as it goes through. I have certainly dealt with some victims who have chosen not to participate in it.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Whether or not you know the procedure, the fact is that after 15 years right now, an offender, a convicted murder, may or may not apply for early release, and the victim just has to wait and see. Is that right? That's what I understand.

[Kim Pate]

Do you mean the application to the chief justice?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

It's the application to the chief justice and whatever else ensues. There's no onus on an offender right now to make that application until the offender wishes to do so. Isn't that correct?

[Kim Pate]

Yes, although if they're wanting to.... Yes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

So after that 15-year mark rolls around, if my wife has been murdered by somebody, I'm going to know, or I hope I might know—and I probably would, because I'm a lawyer—that the offender can apply. But I'm not going to know when or whether the offender will, and I'm just going to have to wait until it happens, isn't that right?

Now, I see that as a problem, and I'm wondering whether you can suggest how you would help the victims deal with that problem.

[Kim Pate]

Well, I would start much earlier than that, quite frankly. Having worked with victims for a long time and, as some members know, being in the situation of my daughter being raised without a grandfather because he was murdered, I think the work that needs to be done to support victims is far earlier than that; it has to be done very early on.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

But there's no amount of work that will enable the victim to know when the offender is going to make an application, is there?

[Kim Pate]

Well, I think hypothetically that's true. Realistically, though, if you know that the person has not been working through, in any way dealing with, the issues that gave rise to their being in the system, you might have some idea that they might not apply or have some idea that if they're eligible—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We're out of time.

We'll go to Mr. Lee for five minutes.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

You've been doing this type of work for a couple of decades?

[Kim Pate]

Yes.