Evidence of meeting #34 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Well, congratulations.
Do you have any comment on the fact that for someone who has already served 15 years of a life sentence in custody there will be a 90-day window as soon as this bill comes into force, and after that there has to be a five-year wait? Do you have any sense, in your experience, whether this would prejudice the ability of one or more convicted persons to actually access this procedure, if they're forced to immediately deal with a 90-day window when this comes into force?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I am concerned, because being able to access legal aid is an increasingly challenging situation for prisoners, and if they're not eligible, they may not be able even to access a lawyer until they are eligible. I don't know many lawyers, with the greatest respect to all my colleagues—as you know, I'm a lawyer as well—who have the ability to activate an application within 90 days, without necessarily even having the documentation from Corrections Canada. I'd be extremely concerned about the number of people who may not be able to get through the door in the first place because of that 90-day window.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
When the minister was here, he indicated that if an application were commenced in the 90 days, there'd still be time to complete it.
I'm not too sure what all that entails. Are you familiar enough with this process? I'm sure you've read the statute.
He was assuring us that if the application got started in the 90 days, it wouldn't end after 90 days; that the process of putting the application together could continue in some fashion.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I'd be interested in the information from Correctional Service of Canada about how many people have been able to complete it within 90 days. I know that even with the assistance of our organization and with us doing some of the legwork to get it in, some have gone well beyond the 90 days.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Well, the way this bill is structured, it's not going to affect any offender directly for 15 years, because it's only going to affect people who are convicted after the law comes into force. But there is the other provision that retrospectively applies these 90-day windows to people currently in custody on life sentences.
That's a long time to wait. The commercial here is that we're getting rid of the faint hope clause, but it's not being gotten rid of for 15 years in terms of practice.
Are you aware in your experience of any public safety implication, good or bad, plus or minus, evolving out of these proposed changes—anything that would affect the safety of the public? Have you come across anything, thought of anything, or would you like to describe anything that might be a public safety issue arising out of these reforms?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I can't think of any, no.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Okay. The short title of the bill is “Serious Time for the Most Serious Crime Act”. Do you understand that title? You've been in the business a while. Is that clear enough, or should we try to refine that a little bit?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
With respect, the title seems to be an attempt to create an impression of doing something that it's not doing. It is increasing potentially the time that people will spend in custody, absolutely, but whether or not that's what will achieve the results of greater public safety, I would argue no, it would not.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Should we be checking with Corrections Canada officials as to the normal procedures that would be attached to one of these applications, to see that it could fit safely and properly within this 90-day window, plus or minus, whatever the minister was referring to?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I'm sorry. I'm smiling because I usually get calls from Corrections Canada officials asking what the procedure would be as a new case comes up. Now, that's with women, and there have been, certainly, turnovers.
What you could ask is of those who are eligible, how many have applied within 90 days. Presumably they would know that, because they would have had to facilitate the access to information and privacy requests.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Yes, this statute doesn't send around a notice to the men and women who are in custody that there's a 90-day thing. It doesn't provide for that, so it could slip on by, but then again....
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
You might very well have a response that the law requires that they respond. We've just come through having to go back to the Federal Court on three occasions to get a certain set of files, and unfortunately I'm not confident that people would get their files within that framework, even.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Thank you for being here. Your experience can help us tremendously.
From what I understand, once an application has been initiated, it is nearly impossible to complete it in less than 90 days.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
That would be my opinion, yes.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
From what I understand, once the application has been completed, it is at least a year, and often longer, before the case is finally heard by a jury.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
That's correct. That's usually at least a year and sometimes has been two or three years.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Obviously, the jury's decision is immediate.
About how long does it take, once the chief justice has determined that the application can proceed, before a jury is empanelled?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
It largely depends on the availability of the lawyers, the crown who is handling the case. Sometimes the crown who did the original prosecution wants to be seized of the case, and so it depends on their schedule, the defence counsel's schedule, and then obviously their ability to empanel a jury within a certain timeframe. So it really varies. It's hard to give a set number because it really has ranged from a year to several years.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
If the jury dismisses the application, a period of 18 months or 2 years will have already gone by. The timeframe before another application can be made begins once the first application has been dismissed. Is that correct?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
That's my understanding of the way it reads. I could be wrong.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Are all of the victims' families who appear to testify opposed to the inmate being released on parole before 25 years is up or, in the case of second-degree murder, 10 to 25 years?
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
No, not all of them are opposed. Some are, and certainly they vocalize that, but some are not. Some attend who are not opposed but don't want to be heard. That's probably more common than actually speaking out in support because there's often pressure brought by others.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Could you give us the proportions of those who are opposed, those who are not, and those who are indifferent? If you cannot, you do not have to.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Of the ten women I've worked with, I would say about half of the victims have chosen not to come forward. That doesn't necessarily mean they're opposed or not opposed, although in some cases I have spoken to the victims and they've indicated they were not opposed but they also did not want to go and advocate on behalf of the individual. They were quite happy with leaving it to the system to determine whether they're ready to rejoin. In one of those cases, they in fact said that they were relying on the system to make that assessment because they hope that if the person is ready to rejoin, they could do something productive with their life, rather than just languish in prison.
In three cases there has been very clear opposition to the person receiving, and two of those three were the two where the women were refused.
