Justice Committee on Nov. 18th, 2010

[Susan O'Sullivan]

As indicated, I've had the opportunity to work with academics throughout my career. I do have a list available should you require it. I am doing and have done substantive research with academics such as Julian Roberts, who's very well renowned for his work, and Professor Skoog. I do rely on research and academics, absolutely, in looking at what some of these issues are and in consulting with them. So I do have a background.

You may have noticed in my CV as well that I had the opportunity to co-chair the POLIS committee, which is the police information and statistics committee. So it is very much evidence-based, because most of the time our most valuable asset is our people, and if we're going to use those resources to support victims, we want to look at a lot of evidence-based....

Through my four years with the POLIS committee, I had an opportunity to be very much involved with data as it relates to crime, in particular uniform crime reporting. I was very proud of our committee, as chair, to be involved in the development of the crime severity index. As you're all well aware, there are really three tools now available to us in Canada that allow us to really say how safe our communities are. One of those is crime rate. The crime severity index was implemented, and it was a four-year process in order to ensure that we had data. And the other tool, of course, is the general social survey.

I do have a lot of experience and background working with academics and do very much believe in evidence-based....

Thank you for that question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. O'Sullivan, for being here. Like the prior questioners, I was quite impressed by your CV as well.

I have a couple of concerns, and I thought I would have heard this from my colleagues from the Bloc. You're obviously fluently capable in the English language, but from today I have a sense that you're not fluent in the French language. In terms of your fluency in reading, writing, and speaking French, how would you classify yourself?

[Susan O'Sullivan]

I am comfortable in both languages. I take advantage of every opportunity I get at the office to communicate in French with my colleagues as well as with stakeholders and victims groups. For me, it is very important that people be able to receive services in the official language of their choice. I sometimes have trouble with grammar and verb tenses, but my understanding of French is good. If I am passionate about an issue, I choose to speak English.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are you going to be receiving training in French?

[Susan O'Sullivan]

I took courses in university. When I was with the Ottawa Police Services, I took a private course with a teacher.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are there any completely bilingual individuals working with you?

[Susan O'Sullivan]

Yes, absolutely.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

The other concern I have, quite frankly, gets back to an issue you have already raised, the gun registry. I must admit I have been fairly intimately involved in that at the time your name was first floated as being the ombudsperson. Your initial response I think distinguished you from your predecessor; in fact, you were criticized by your predecessor for not taking a position immediately on the gun registry. In fact at that time, Ms. O’Sullivan, you indicated an uncertainty--I’ll put it at that, at least that is the way the media reported it--as to whether the ombudsman should be taking a position on an issue like that. I know subsequently you in fact did. It’s clear that you have an advocacy role. Do you agree with me on that?

[Susan O'Sullivan]

I don’t know if we would use the word “ombudsman”, but we would use the word “advocacy”, definitely advocacy for fairness for victims.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Specifically, in the booklet that you hand out it says you make recommendations to the federal government on how to change its policies or laws to better suit the needs and concerns of victims. That clearly puts you in a position where from time to time you are going to have to make recommendations based on what you've heard from victims of crime around amendments to the law and the legal process.

[Susan O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

And do you not see that as being an advocacy role?

[Susan O'Sullivan]

You are putting the voice for victims forward, yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

And you will be that voice for them?

[Susan O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Just on one final area, the British have gone quite extensively beyond anything that we are doing in Canada now in terms of assisting victims of crime. I don’t know if you saw that article in the last few months where some of the victims of crime really felt that they were almost being harassed, that the police were trying to be overly helpful. Have you looked at the system in the U.K.?

[Susan O'Sullivan]

Actually, twice. I was over in the spring on a totally different subject to my other role, and I took the opportunity to attend the U.K. London support office and to look at their strategic plan, and particularly the white paper. I was recently in Scotland, looking at their business plan, “Do you know how supporting victims of crime is helping Scotland?”

I also had the opportunity to meet with several of the leaders over there just several weeks ago, particularly Owen Sharp, who is the executive director of operations for Victim Support England and Wales. There, as you know, England is facing some unique issues in relation to their cuts. There is a lot of similarity, of course, with the U.K. They have taken a national approach. Really the message I received from Victim Support Scotland was that this was the business case that brought about a lot of victim support for Scotland. I think the other thing that is very interesting in the U.K., in particular Victim Support EU, is they are all working right now on a manifesto. I have been assured through my contacts there that as soon as that is ready, they will be able to share that with our office. That manifesto has gone beyond victims' rights. Their discussions are now around how do we implement....

So thank you for that question. I think they are doing some fantastic work over there, and we will continue to work with them.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In the course of your three-year appointment--I guess closer to two and a half years now, before your three years are up--do you see yourself as being in a position to be able to make recommendations to the federal government about expanding services for victims of crime?

[Susan O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That’s all, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

We will move to the government side and we have Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. O’Sullivan. You have a very impressive CV. Your answers to the questions have impressed me.

I guess I share a thirty-year history with the police force, very much in the Ottawa Valley for the first half of it, and I am from a family of six. And from there I want to start my questioning.

You indicated you learned some core values from your parents. I would suggest to you, and you can confirm if I am right, that when you come from a fairly large family, in this day and age six seems to be a larger type of family, you learn to share. You learn to prioritize, because families have limited incomes, especially when it comes down to six children who demand a lot of things. And you also learn to live within your means, but that doesn’t mean to say that you don’t aspire to better. So using those core values, how do you see your management of your department, in that you share with other departments, in that you learn to live within your means? I think as a member of a police department you can comment on whether you have ever been in a position where you were limited by the resources you were able to utilize. I think you would agree with me that there is never enough, but that sometimes you have to make do with what you have.

So I wonder if you could make some comments in regard to that, and then specifically how you see your role as an ombudsman reflect those values and some of the limitations, but not limiting your ability to represent those who police officers first handle, and that's the victims. We are the first contact victims have with society. How do you manage all those things rolled up into one? Perhaps you could just make some general comments along those lines.

[Susan O'Sullivan]

First of all, the office of the ombudsman is only three years old, so I have the privilege of building from the foundation of the former ombudsman and the staff.

Some of my priorities would be outreach and awareness, risk management, roles and responsibilities, and consultation. I'm going to reflect on Mr. Comartin's comments. I have a lot of opinions, and I have a lot of experience as a police officer. I bring that to the table.

One of the commitments I have is to be a voice for victims. When I speak for victims, I really want to be their voice. One of the priorities for our office is to continue to develop a framework for consultation dialogue around this country, so that we can connect. In 12 short weeks, I have talked to a lot of people in different provinces and territories. We talked about the need for national consultation dialogue. I am cognizant that there are different advisory committees.

I'll use one example. Correctional Services Canada has invested for several years in the National Aboriginal Advisory Committee, which has some of the most iconic people in this country addressing these issues. Is there an opportunity for this office to leverage when that committee meets, and, by having open lines of communication, to be able to participate?

We don't want to reinvent wheels. Victims have been telling us what the issues are. What we want to do is construct a broader framework for dialogue and bring those issues to bear. Everyone in this room knows that victims have different needs, that those needs may be unique, and that there probably won't be consensus on all priorities based on a victim's experience and needs.

You hear about problems such as human trafficking, terrorism, Internet luring, victims affected by immigration and deportation, the need to strengthen the CCRA and some of the information that's allowed to go to victims. These are some of the priorities we're looking at. In looking at them, we need to have that dialogue and consultation. We need to be a reasonable reflection of what victims are telling us in Canada. And we need to continue to work on the iconic reports and strategies that are already out there. We know what legislation is on the table. By ensuring that we have that framework, we'll be able to leverage in a better way.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned your consultation with victims of crime, and you mentioned some of the areas they pertain to. Future governments will be bringing in legislation on crime and social order that you may want to have input into. Do you feel that you would be comfortable working with the Department of Justice or the public safety minister on proposed legislation? Would you feel comfortable letting ministers know how victims of crime, based on your conversations with them, would feel about a particular piece of legislation?