Evidence of meeting #36 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was years.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Susan O'Sullivan  Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime
Howard Sapers  Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Ivan Zinger  Executive Director and General Counsel, Office of the Correctional Investigator

3:35 p.m.

Susan O'Sullivan Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, committee members. I am delighted to be here this afternoon and to have this opportunity to meet with you and to discuss my appointment as Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime.

Allow me to begin by saying that I was both honoured to be chosen and extremely enthusiastic at accepting this appointment and in so doing in putting my passion to use through serving the victims of crime. I believe that this organization is truly capable of changing things for the better and of raising the awareness level of some of the difficult challenges confronting victims in Canada.

You invited me here today to discuss the qualifications and skills that will allow me to carry out my work as ombudsman. Let me begin by saying that I believe that the selection of the leadership for organizations such as ours is important and that I fully support, without any reservation whatsoever, the measures taken to this end.

In order to facilitate your examination of my appointment, I will provide you this afternoon with a brief outline of my background and experience, including the skills and abilities that I will be applying to the fulfilment of my duties in this position. I will also share with you a bit of the specific passion that drives me in this area and my management style.

I would first like to take a minute to tell you a little bit about who I am and where I come from.

I was born and raised here in Ottawa, and I come from a family of six children. My parents instilled in each and every one of us the basic sense of right and wrong, the importance of honesty, integrity, and treating people with respect and ethics. Their golden rule was simply that if you could help someone, you helped them.

Why I share this with you this afternoon is that these are the core values that guide me in both my personal and professional life. I describe my leadership style as principle-centred; in other words, do the right thing for the right reason.

My career experience dates back almost 30 years. I graduated from Carleton University in April of 1981, and I started as a police officer with the Ottawa Police Service one month later. I joined the service because I wanted to help people and make a difference in my community.

I started my career walking the beat, and I've worked in patrol services, the criminal investigation division, and operations support. I have had the opportunity to see first-hand the devastation crime can wreak on victims: to see parents told that their child has been killed by a drunk driver; to interview children who have been sexually assaulted; to investigate crimes where the victim has special needs and may not be able to communicate; to see a victim of domestic assault have to pick up her children, her belongings, and go to a shelter for her safety and the safety of her children; to see families and victims try to navigate the complex and complicated criminal justice system.

In those roles I have also had the opportunity to see how meeting the needs of victims requires a multi-agency approach, one that will support victims from the initial contact through the criminal justice system and beyond.

Following that experience, I moved to patrol services, where I became the district and then duty inspector. As inspector, I was responsible for attending and assuming command of major and high-risk incidents. This position helped me learn to be strategic and collected in a crisis and, most importantly, to be flexible. It taught me the importance of thinking outside the box and evaluating all the possible options and outcomes before taking action.

In the early 1990s I was seconded to the Canadian Police College, where I had the opportunity to work for a year in the communications skills unit and another year in the executive development unit. But I also had a unique opportunity—and some of you may recall the Rix Rogers report on child sexual abuse—to be the lead working on a national police prevention of family violence training initiative, and was able to co-author and contribute to over ten national reports in the area of vulnerable victim police training.

In 2001 I was appointed the deputy chief of operations support, and was able to achieve and work on some significant areas, including emergency management. I worked on the city's five-year emergency management plan. I was co-chair of the original chemical, biological, nuclear explosives program here in the national capital region.

I was executive sponsor of the respectful workplace program for the Ottawa Police Service, which was five years in the making and really helps to address what is one of the largest struggles that organizations must deal with, having a healthy and safe work environment. I was also involved in information sharing among government partners to mitigate security threats, and in crime prevention and the development of the Ottawa Police Service youth strategy. And I also had the unique opportunity, as a result of some tragedies within our organization, to be part of the redevelopment of the critical incident stress management as a result, sadly, of numerous officers' suicides within our organization.

In 2006 I moved into the post of deputy chief for patrol operations, where I was able to provide further leadership in the area of strategic planning, in particular as chair of two of the Ottawa Police Service's business plans.

I finished my career as the deputy chief of operation support, where I was instrumental in developing and implementing a program called “operation intersect”, playing a leadership role as president of the leadership in Counter Terrorism Alumni Association, an international network of senior police leaders committed to addressing issues regarding leadership, intelligence, and operations in relation to terrorism, issues that are increasingly important in both our city and our country.

Beyond management skills and leadership, the position of deputy chief requires someone who is unafraid to tackle tough issues. There's often no road map for some of the decisions that have to be made. In this position, and throughout my career, I was an advocate for progress to keep pushing forward and finding new and effective ways to deal with the increasingly complex challenges.

I would never feel comfortable taking credit for the good work of the Ottawa Police, because the truth is that the work is only as strong as the team behind you, and I have had the privilege of working with some of the best teams. I will say, however, that the skills I developed in working with and managing these teams will be invaluable to me in my new role.

Our time together is limited, so perhaps I can best illustrate my leadership style and experience through two specific examples.

The first I would like to tell you about--and I mentioned it earlier--is Operation Intersect. This came about as the result of my work with leaders in the field of counter-terrorism.

Within the national capital region there was a need to develop a tri-government framework, a framework that allows municipalities, provinces, and the federal government to work together to share information; in other words, to ensure that when difficult decisions had to be made in times of threat, people were making those decisions based on the best information available and information that could be shared among agencies.

We dealt with six different threats, and it allowed for a planned approach by all responders to mitigate the effect in a manner that alerts rather than alarms and enhances public safety and awareness during times of instability and uncertainty. Operation Intersect is in practice now and has been used to support many major events within the national capital region and it has been deployed through major terrorism trials such as Khawaja. I could go on.

Operation Intersect involves over 32 organizations.

The program is also available in both official languages.

The success of this program was seen, I think, when I was invited to represent the organization to present at an international counter-terrorism conference this spring in London, England, the kind of work this community was doing to break down those silos when having to deal with those multi-agency environments.

The second one I’d like to highlight for you--and why I mention Operation Intersect--is because the program that has been developed is built off the five years of great work. The governance structure was to better coordinate responses for victims of crime here in the city of Ottawa, a program that has come to be known as the coordinated victim assistance program. It was born of the recognition that if we are truly going to meet the needs of all victims, they cannot be met by any one agency, and we must be working together strategically to leverage all the organization’s responses to be able to support victims and all their unique needs.

If I may say, CVAP also uses all the lessons learned from Operation Intersect and brings together, as I mentioned, representatives from all three levels of government to address the proper support for victims in the community here in Ottawa. This program is still in its early stages. I am confident that the work that has been done will result in positive change for victims locally and beyond.

When the opportunity for this position arose, I saw it as a perfect fit. I felt that my experience working in law enforcement for the past 30 years had given me an incredible respect for the immediate and clear impact that crime has on victims. The trauma, devastation, strength, and resilience of victims I have seen and assisted has always been a source of inspiration for my work in the community and will continue to inspire me as ombudsman.

I am excited to have the opportunity to use my hands-on experience and all that I have learned from the victims we assisted to make a difference for all Canadians. For me, it is the chance for my work to come full circle and to help those who are most affected by crime, the victims. There is no doubt that as ombudsman I have a much wider responsibility to victims of crime in Canada. For that reason, I have worked very hard to get up to speed and learn the ins and outs of the boundaries, capacities, and role of an ombudsman in the federal government. I will continue to strengthen that knowledge as we move forward.

I would like to conclude by sharing with you my vision for this office and the work we can accomplish. As ombudsman, I see it as my job to bring about positive change for victims. I have a responsibility to both victims and the government to ensure that our office is responsible to victims, that we listen carefully to the issues victims raise, and ensure that their voices are heard at the federal level.

There are many ways to accomplish this, but my preferred approach is by keeping open lines of communication and providing everyone involved the opportunity to become part of the solution. We need to find common ground among governments, NGOs, and victims to ensure we are able to make that change happen.

I will not always agree with government, and where I disagree I will make my views known. However, I am not concerned with being critical for the sake of.... What I am concerned about is doing the right thing for the right reasons and making things better for victims of crime in Canada.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I hope this afternoon I have provided you with the information you need to feel confident in my appointment as ombudsman for victims of crime. I believe I bring to this position a proven track record of solid work, integrity, and leadership.

I was drawn to law enforcement because of my desire to help people. Today, in this new position, I will continue to work to serve the public and it is my hope that I will be able to continue to do this over the course of the next three years.

Given my 30 years of hands-on experience, my leadership style, and my vision for this office, I feel I have what it takes to build on the success of this office and to help balance the scales for victims.

I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. Thank you.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you very much.

Before we go to questions, I want to remind committee members that an appointee who is called before us for examination.... If it’s an order-in-council examination--and I am quoting O’Brien and Bosc--the committee “is limited by the Standing Orders to examining the individual’s qualifications and competence to perform the duties of the office sought”. So I seek your cooperation in complying with that. But as always, we’ll be reasonable in terms of the questions that will be permitted.

We’ll begin with Ms. Jennings.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. O'Sullivan, I thank you for your presentation and I congratulate you for your appointment. I find your vision of the role of Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime to be a laudable one.

You said that you would not hesitate to state publicly that the government is wrong if you are of the belief that it is mistaken in its practices or policies.

What do you think of a government that allocates a budget to provide services to victims leaving close to half of that money on the table and at the same time launches an advertising campaign aimed...?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

We have a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Dechert.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Mr. Chair, I think Ms. Jennings may not have not been able to hear your opening remarks about the tenor of the questions to be asked to the witness in respect of her appointment. Perhaps you could repeat them for her, because I think where she was going with that question was clearly out of line with the rules you set out.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

She probably heard it. It's just that we want to make sure that we comply.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I wish to respond. Before going into politics, I sat on a selection committee for senior officers. I can tell you that part of the exercise and process involved in determining if an individual is qualified to fill the position is to place that individual in a hypothetical situation and to observe his or her reactions, conclusions and suggested solutions.

I am in the process of describing a hypothetical situation in order to determine how Ms. O'Sullivan will act in her role as Federal Ombudsman. I believe that this is perfectly appropriate and fits the mandate and the Standing Orders that you mentioned and read out loud to all the members of this committee.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Mr. Comartin, go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Anticipating that I may breach your comments, I'm not sure that I'll classify it as a ruling.

It's clear that the ombudsman's role has an advocacy component. I think, in part, what Ms. Jennings is getting at and what I would like to get at is the perspective this particular ombudsperson has with regard to the advocacy role.

I'm a bit concerned about your comments at the start, Mr. Chair, in terms of limiting our ability to question--I was going to say this candidate--this ombudsperson for victims of crime in this country on her perspective on the role she's supposed to be playing with respect to advocacy on behalf of victims of crime.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

First of all, the comments I made, which limit the scope of this examination, were straight out of O'Brien and Bosc, and they reflect the Standing Orders. Certainly it wasn't my opinion that I quoted to you. I quoted directly from O'Brien and Bosc. Those are the terms within which this examination takes place. I have flexibility, as the chair, to allow a fairly generous interpretation of that, but we don't want to go too much outside of that. Let's just keep that in mind.

What you couldn't ask Ms. O'Sullivan is what kinds of policies she would adopt. She certainly shouldn't be prejudicing decisions she'll be making in the future. That's the whole purpose of having these limitations. I think all of us understand that. Pretty well everyone, except one, is a lawyer, so we understand that.

We'll go back to you, keeping those comments in mind.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I perhaps forgot to clarify that the case I was putting to Ms. O'Sullivan was hypothetical.

I come back now to the government's program. For example, an amount of $10 million is allocated to supply and provide direct services to victims of crime for one fiscal year. At the end of that fiscal year, only half of that amount has been spent, but during the same period, the government spent more than half of the budget for an advertising campaign based on the premise that certain...

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

One moment, Ms. Jennings.

Mr. Petit, is this a point of order?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Yes. On a point of order. You explained the Standing Orders to Ms. Jennings. However, she is, in an indirect way, doing exactly what you just told her not to do. She is playing politics, and I do not like that.

Your story about a hypothetical example just does not fly. All you want is to target the Conservative party. That is all you are doing, and that is not appropriate. That is not why our guest is here. That is what I would like to have you understand. The Chairman...

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Mr. Petit, order.

Listen, I'm going to allow Ms. Jennings to carry on. If I feel at the end of her question that she's not coming within the rules, the Standing Orders, I will let her know.

I'm want to be fair with everybody, but let's move along. If she's outside the Standing Orders, I will call her on it.

Mr. Woodworth.

November 18th, 2010 / 3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I hope you don't mind my speaking to the point of order, although you seem to have made a ruling on it already.

I think there's wisdom in not asking a witness to try to prejudge a particular decision. If you put a hypothetical case to someone in this witness's position, you're inviting her to prejudge it. That's where the point of order has force. We might ask about general beliefs and opinions. But to suggest a hypothetical question and ask a witness what he or she would do in such a case is to invite an official to prejudge. This is what the rule is seeking to avoid.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

The problem is that she hasn't actually completed her question yet. Once it's complete, I can assess whether it's in order or not.

Ms. Jennings, carry on.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

As an aside, I'm going to open a parenthesis. Although I'm not sure Mr. Petit is aware of it, he just stated that my hypothetical case was not hypothetical but factual. I guess I'm going to have to change examples. I would not wish to put Ms. O'Sullivan in the difficult position of having to comment on an actual event that took place under this Conservative government. It had a budget of close to $10 million to provide services to victims of crime, but it didn't spend it. Instead, it let half of it lapse and then turned around and spent $6 million on an ad campaign called “Victims Matter”, in which it claims that certain pieces of legislation are enforced when they are not.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Ms. Jennings, order.

Let's get back to the witness.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

Given that the sensibilities and sensitivities of the Conservative members are so high, I will leave the hypothetical case aside.

I have only one point. Your CV is impressive, and I think you've demonstrated on paper that you have the qualifications for the job. It's probably simply an oversight, but on your CV you mention that you were deputy chief, operations support, and deputy chief, patrol operations, from October 2001 to August 2010. However, you neglected to state which police department you were working for. I'm assuming it was the City of Ottawa.

3:55 p.m.

Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

Susan O'Sullivan

Yes, sorry, it was the Ottawa police department.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Congratulations on your excellent career. Judging from this, I think you have the qualifications, and I'm looking forward to seeing you work.

3:55 p.m.

Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Mr. Ménard, you have the floor.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I too am impressed by your resume.

I do not know much about your office. I would like you to familiarize us with it in a few words, very quickly. I have three short questions. How many employees do you have?

3:55 p.m.

Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime

Susan O'Sullivan

There are approximately 600 civilians and 1,400 officers. There is therefore a staff of 2,000.