Evidence of meeting #46 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was treatment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
There is not one yet.
Conservative
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I'd like to give my thanks to all of the witnesses who are here today. I know that for some of you, your work is intensely difficult and painful, and we appreciate you sharing that with us. I don't think that two people or two groups or two interests will ever agree on everything, but it is good for us as legislators to hear a diversity of points of view.
Mr. Russomanno, there was one thing I think I heard you say that I did agree with. I just want to be sure that I heard you expressing my thought as well, and that is that the courts have decided that jail is the appropriate sentence for sexual offences, especially for those involving the exploitation of children. Am I correctly perceiving what you said on that? Because that's what squares with my experience.
Member, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Yes. The abundance of case law, including the cases from the Ontario Court of Appeal, suggests that when the victim is a child, and in particular when the offender is in a position of trust or authority, jail is the norm.
I don't think they would say that it's in 100% of cases. These were in circumstances where a conditional sentence was imposed and then it was overturned by the court of appeal, and that was because the court of appeal said that you can't achieve deterrence with a conditional sentence in these cases.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I won't ask you to get into too much detail. I just wanted to say that I agree that, in my experience—I should say, just so you know, and I think everybody else knows, that I practised criminal law for almost 30 years--indeed, jail is the norm. But I would draw perhaps two different conclusions from that than you might.
The first conclusion is that I think it takes a bit of wind out of the sails of those whose dissertation is that there's no point to mandatory minimum penalties because in fact the courts have in fact said that jail should be the norm. Everybody in the system knows it. And if that induces more trials, the courts are willing to accept that. If that induces more guilty pleas, the courts are willing to accept that. If jail is not a deterrent, the courts think that there are other reasons for jail in these cases. I must say that I do too, and our government does too.
The second conclusion I might draw that you might not agree with is that I happen to believe that the elected representatives of Canadians are in as legitimate a position to make such decisions as judges are, and that it is legitimate for the government to say that jail should be the norm. In fact, jail should be the unvarying norm.
I wanted to just comment briefly on Mr. Spratt's eloquent defence of judicial discretion. I only wish you had been here when we were debating the multiple-murder discount bill. We were trying to give judges the authority to impose stiffer sentences. I sometimes think that whether you like judicial discretion depends on whether you want stiffer sentences or not so stiff sentences. To be unvarying in it, as you propose, I hope is at least consistent.
Briefly, Mr. McWhinnie, I want to say that I'm very grateful for your work with circles of support and accountability. I hope you're aware that last year, not too many months ago, our government in fact did renew and increase funding for the national circles of support program. I happen to be aware of that because I was contacted by the Mennonite Central Committee, which advocated strongly for that. However, our government believes in a balanced approach, not only on issues regarding rehabilitation and prevention but also with respect to appropriate deterrence.
I want to just suggest a different point of view to you regarding the question of harm that comes to families from putting people in jail. I'm old enough to remember 30 years ago when that was exactly the argument we used to make regarding wife-beaters. If you know about spousal abuse, you know that women are very great advocates for their abusers. But society has changed. Over the years we've determined that even though putting a wife-beater, a spousal abuser, in jail or penalizing him may take away from the dependants of the victim, we still do it. I think we're at the point where we should do the same regarding incest.
Regarding the courts' views on sentencing, I want to bring to the attention of the criminal lawyer people that the Alberta Court of Appeal, about two months ago, rendered a judgment by five judges of the Alberta Court of Appeal indicating that “wide disparities in sentencing are precipitating a crisis of confidence in the justice system.... Trial judges must be restrained from injecting their personal views and predilections into the sentencing process... The vast sentencing discretion currently enjoyed by trial judges 'makes the search for just sanctions at best a lottery, and at worst, a myth'” and in fact “inevitably causes prosecutors and defence lawyers to 'judge shop'”. All of that rings very true, from my experience, and is a good reason for mandatory minimum penalties.
Do you know how many criminal lawyers there are in Ontario, by the way?
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
There are probably a lot more than just a thousand.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Your organization represents a thousand criminal lawyers in Ontario, correct?
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
How many submissions did you get from your members regarding Bill C-54?
Conservative
Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association
I don't know the exact number of submissions. It was canvassed extensively. We've spoken to many criminal lawyers who aren't members of our organization, and the universal opinion of all the criminal lawyers I've talked to is that mandatory minimum sentences accomplish none of the goals—
Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association
—that your government has reported that they accomplished.
Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association
I don't have a count off the top of my head. I'd be happy to provide you with names.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
No, I don't need names, but I would be grateful to know how many submissions your organization received from its members regarding Bill C-54.
And how many lawyers were involved in the preparation of your submissions for today?
