Evidence of meeting #47 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Yes, you are. You can do it on your next round.
We're going to move to Ms. Dhalla for five minutes.
By the way, welcome to our committee, Ms. Dhalla. I think this is a first, certainly for as long as I've been on the committee.
Liberal
Ruby Dhalla Liberal Brampton—Springdale, ON
Yes, I think it is a first. It's a pleasure to fill in for my colleague who's away and to be able to discuss an important issue.
I had a chance this morning to read the e-mails that my constituents wrote me. One was from a very, very concerned father whose daughter had been affected. In his e-mail he wrote that his 12-year-old daughter had suddenly received a picture of a male's private body part on her cellphone. He immediately went to the police station to report it. He was frustrated at the treatment he received there, but really urged me to ensure that we take greater action on this, because the crimes are heinous and they are affecting and impacting young people.
In doing some research, I see that there are a lot of differing viewpoints as to the options for solutions for addressing this. Another issue has come forward from some individuals, one being Canada Family Action. They have stated that the terminology itself needs to be changed from “child pornography” to “child sex abuse materials”.
Mr. Marshall, with all of your great expertise, I wanted to hear your viewpoint on whether there needs to be a change in definition or an addition to the definition in the Criminal Code.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
I understand the desire to change it to that language. I have no problem with it.
To go back to your point about the understandable distress of this father, I want to reiterate that I think that all men who molest children should go to jail; it's a question of how long they go to jail and what we can do with them when they're there. I wouldn't disagree with jail sentences for all child molesters, not in the slightest. I know what they do better than anybody at this table, I would say.
Liberal
Ruby Dhalla Liberal Brampton—Springdale, ON
Ms. Hannem, has the fact that the definition hasn't been changed, or hasn't been called “child sex abuse materials”, prevented people from being prosecuted?
Chair, Policy Review Committee, Canadian Criminal Justice Association
I have no awareness of any cases that would be pertinent to--
Chair, Policy Review Committee, Canadian Criminal Justice Association
I don't have a problem with the change in the language, if that's what you're asking.
Liberal
Ruby Dhalla Liberal Brampton—Springdale, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Marshall, in regard to the fact that these individuals do need to be jailed, I think that's something that I hope most parliamentarians around this table would agree on. But as we've heard from many witnesses and from you, treatment is also important. I again want to get your perspective on what you think those jail sentences should be. One of the questions that has been raised repeatedly within Parliament is the cost of building all these prisons. Perhaps you could shed some light on that.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
I was speaking only about child molesters. I don't think it's particularly relevant to send exhibitionists, particularly first-time offenders, to jail. That seems to me to seriously damage their lives anyway, making their readjustment more problematic and increasing the likelihood they'll reoffend. But with respect to child molesters.... I'm sorry, but can you repeat your question?
Liberal
Ruby Dhalla Liberal Brampton—Springdale, ON
In regard to child molesters, I definitely agree with you that they need to go to jail, but what would you recommend in terms of sentencing? I see that the bill proposes increasing this from 14 to 90 days. What is your expert recommendation in regard to that?
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
Either 45 days or 90 days is certainly not long enough to get them in treatment. If they're willing to enter a community-based treatment program and it's a community-based treatment program that has evidence that they know what they're doing, then that seems to me to be quite satisfactory.
As Mr. Fletcher said, what evidence there is suggests that community-based programs are slightly more effective--it's a pretty small difference--than institutional programs. What Corrections Canada does and what the Ontario provincial correctional service tries to do is get them started in treatment in prison and then have that treatment continue when they're released into the community. Over the years, Corrections Canada has funded community treatment programs and has carefully selected them so they know what they're doing.
Liberal
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
It depends on the individual, to a large extent. The least at-risk men probably need six months to a year in treatment, either in the community or in prison. They're the least problematic.
Conservative
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I would like to come back to a topic that my colleague Mr. Woodworth and other witnesses raised, and that is sort of related to your answers to Ms. Dhalla.
I think the courts of appeal have in fact established that, in cases of sexual offences against children—not sexual offences in general—the rule should be imprisonment. Of course, the length of the sentence is not specified because it is determined based on the legislation and individual circumstances. Do you think this rule is justified?
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
A minimum sentence...?
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
It doesn’t matter. I just want your opinion. Do you think this rule is justified, meaning that, if treatment is required, sentences of various lengths can be imposed, and the treatment can follow after that?
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
Yes. They definitely need treatment after they're released from prison, especially the moderate- and higher-risk offenders, who definitely do. For some of the low-risk men, if you have a short sentence, all it does is allow us to prepare them to continue treatment when they're back in the community.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
Probably, yes.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I would like to come back to the topic I mentioned earlier. You've also found that, in general, sex offenders against children are not at all well received in prison and, in fact, very often, they are beaten up and have to live in isolation when there are no separate prisons. In my experience, they are terrorized by this. Is this terror helpful in changing their future behaviour ?
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
Well, actually, it hasn't been my experience, at least in the Ontario region, that this is anywhere near a serious problem, as it's often made out to be. I think most of the offenders--the child molesters in particular--coming into jail believe that they are going to be subjected to all kinds of physical and verbal harassment. What they find when they go there--because as I said, in the Ontario region there are specific program-oriented prisons--is that it's nowhere near as bad as they thought. I mean, there is some harassment, but it's verbal and doesn't usually result in any physical assault.
It occurs a little bit more commonly in the Ontario provincial corrections system, where they have more of an overcrowding problem. I think it's much more related to overcrowding, to be honest. I think if you put more people in jail for longer periods of time, that kind of harassment is going to increase, and that's going to diminish their capacity to function well in a treatment program.
