Justice Committee on Feb. 9th, 2011

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Fletcher.

[Randall Fletcher]

I really can't comment. I have no insight into why that decision was made in the federal system. I can say that there's nothing similar in the provincial system in P.E.I.

But I certainly concur with Dr. Marshall that effective treatment requires someone with extensive training. It also requires that there be money available to keep upgrading that training. As there is new research taking place, you need to keep up with that, particularly in terms of the trends toward what are considered best practices in treatment.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay.

This movement of these sentencing levels seems to be like some kind of public auction or a silent auction going on here now. If we, through this bill, increase the length of sentences but we don't do anything about the programming, do you have any comment about the implications for the success of our public policy change to increase the sentencing without dealing with funding for programming?

I'll go to our remote witnesses first: Mr. Fletcher or Ms. Hannem.

[Randall Fletcher]

If you set aside the implication of it maybe resulting in decreased money being available for treatment, then I can't see it having any impact on that. You're not talking about a very big increase in the minimum sentence. The question is whether it will actually do any good.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Isn't there a likelihood that the increased sentencing will start to suck up all the money that we would otherwise be able to perhaps use in treatment?

[Randall Fletcher]

Yes. That's what both Dr. Marshall and Stacey Hannem have been saying. It takes money away from treatment.

The provincial systems are already struggling greatly with some of the legislation that has been passed in regard to changing sentence lengths for other types of criminal behaviour. In P.E.I. they've just built a huge addition onto the provincial correctional centre. That is creating a real financial crisis in the system. So far, it hasn't impacted on my service, but that's mainly because of the priority the province gives it. If that trend continues, then obviously there is going to be less money available.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Marshall.

[Dr. William Marshall]

It's interesting that Corrections are cutting back on the provision of treatment for sex offenders when Pamela Yates, who works for the Correctional Service of Canada in Ottawa here, did a study examining the cost benefits of providing treatment for sexual offenders. She calculated that every dollar spent on sexual offender programs saves the Correctional Service of Canada six dollars by getting men out of the prison earlier and by failing to return them to prison as a result of recidivism.

The reason they claim.... I don't think it's founded at all, but the reason that CSC claims for their moving away from psychologists is that they claim they cannot recruit psychologists. Now, that might be true in the northern part of Alberta, but it's absolutely not true in most of the other provinces. In most of the large cities, it's not true at all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move to Monsieur Ménard for seven minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Not only did studying this bill allow us to hear from other witnesses and to better understand the topic, but it also made us think things through in general; this is really about a type of crime that is considered the consequence of psychological abnormalities. Generally, we consider these people to be sick. But that does not mean they inspire pity because they are sick. Quite often, the opposite is true.

When you talk about treatment in general, are you talking about treatment that cures them of the abnormal psychological impulses that make them act the way they do, or treatment that helps them to control the urges that are still present so that they don't act on them when they surface?

[Dr. William Marshall]

The goal of treatment is to help them meet the needs that they are attempting to meet so inappropriately and so damagingly to innocent people. It's to help them develop the skills and the capacity, the attitudes towards others and towards themselves, that allow them to meet their needs in prosocial ways. So it's not so much a matter of sort of curing their tendency to be obsessed with, let's say, molesting children; rather, it's more a matter of providing them with the capacities and strengths so that they will be able to meet their needs in prosocial ways and they therefore won't need to molest children.

What he targets of treatment for these programs are derived from is research showing that these potentially modifiable features of offenders actually predict reoffending. It's only those that have been shown to predict reoffending that we address in treatment; they're called criminogenic factors. For example, one of the biggest is relationship difficulties. If you can't meet your needs in effective relationships, then you're going to look elsewhere. For some men, that means they have multiple affairs. Others drink too much. For some, unfortunately, it means they molest children or assault women.

It's a whole range of issues that would take me some time to tell you about. That's just one of the typical things that are addressed. The only reason we address it is that it is deficiencies in those skills that have been shown to predict reoffending.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Do any of the other witnesses want to answer the question?

[Randall Fletcher]

I would certainly concur with what Dr. Marshall is saying. It needs to be understood that if someone commits a sexual offence, it's not a sickness. It's not a disease process that happens with them. They're not born with something different about them that leads to that behaviour. It's a learned behaviour. Somewhere along the way in life, they learned to try to get their emotional and psychological needs met through that type of behaviour, and they choose to do so in the absence of skills or the awareness of how to do it differently. That's what treatment focuses on.

One of the current trends in treatment is sometimes referred to as the “good life model”, the idea being that if you teach someone how to lead a good life where their needs are well met, then you don't need to worry about them engaging in any criminogenic behaviour, not because they have the will not to, but because they just won't have the urge to.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

If you received the funding you considered necessary to provide those types of treatments, what would the anticipated non-recidivism rate be?

[Dr. William Marshall]

Well, I'd like to have zero, just like all the rest of us.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Do you think you could reach the zero objective if you received enough money to develop programs? Do you think that, with the science we have today, it is possible to develop programs and to prevent people from reoffending?

[Dr. William Marshall]

No. It's a dream, just like the dream to cure cancer, to eliminate cancer altogether. We're not going to get there just yet.

I can tell you that what we know now is remarkably more comprehensive than what we knew when I started doing this. If you look at the effects of treatment, you'll see that they are clearly related to this more modern movement towards addressing criminogenic factors. That's what has really made profound changes.

All this research really is Canadian. There's not much outside of Canada that's made much of a difference to the ability to effectively treat. Our treatment program over a 10-year period got the recidivism rate down to 5%. I'd like it a lot lower than that, but that's substantially better than a program 10 years ago that had it down to somewhere like 9% or 10%.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Oh, okay. Now...

[Randall Fletcher]

If I could comment on that, I agree that obviously we'd like it to be zero per cent. When you're talking about something as complex as human behaviour, you're always going to find some people who, for one reason or another, are resistant to treatment or where treatment can't be delivered to them effectively. Not all treatment programs are the same.

In P.E.I., for the people who attend the treatment program here, if you look at the predicted recidivism rate without treatment for their risk level, it ranges from 13% to 17%. The five- and ten-year recidivism rate for people who have had treatment ranges from 3% to 4%. That certainly shows how effective it can be. I'd like to get it lower, but I don't know how much lower it can go.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I will move on to another topic. I have practised criminal law throughout my career as a lawyer, since 1966. I'm not really an expert in this area and I have not defended many cases like that, but, in general, when people convicted of crimes against children go to jail, it is very difficult to protect them because other inmates attack them. That's what we are told.

Mr. Marshall, you must have surely encountered situations like these. How do you go about treating them? Can you tell us how people are taken care of in those circumstances? It's strange because no one mentioned it to me until now—unless the situation in Quebec is very specific. But I think that this is what generally happens. As a result, the chance of people going back to jail after they've had a taste of prison is slim because they really don't want to go back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Monsieur Ménard, we're about a minute over.

I'll give you maybe 15 seconds to respond.

You can come back on the next round, all right, Monsieur Ménard?

If you could, just very quickly respond.

[Dr. William Marshall]

What I did in Ontario--and still do--was have special prisons for programs. So for offenders of any kind who volunteer for programs, they go to those prisons. The harassment of sexual offenders in those prisons is very low, because anybody who harasses a sexual offender knows they're on the next bus to what the prisoners call the gladiator prison.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Mr. Comartin, you have seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Dr. Marshall, I just want to get more of your background, because I think you were fairly modest when you said who you were. You've received the Order of Canada for the work that you've done in this area...?

[Dr. William Marshall]

I have, yes.