Evidence of meeting #47 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
You've also published, my notes show, over 300 publications, including 16 books?
4:30 p.m.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
It's 375 now.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
It's 375 now? Okay.
You did indicate that you have been advising up to 26 other countries in this area of sexual offenders.
4:30 p.m.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
Yes, that's true.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Including most recently--I think as of 2003--you've become a consultant to the Vatican for all the problems they've been having with sexual abuse.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
In terms of the decision--you said in this last year--to pull the psychologists out, is there any explanation for it other than the cost?
4:30 p.m.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
The claim is that they cannot recruit sufficient psychologists, and that certainly isn't true in Quebec, in Ontario, and in most of the provinces--certainly not in B.C. Maybe it is true in some remote areas in the northern prairies, but it doesn't strike me as... You know, you don't dump all the psychologists just because you can't get them in northern Alberta. That seems like a plainly stupid strategy to me.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
4:30 p.m.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
More or less, yes.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
4:30 p.m.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
And provide the programs, yes.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Most of those would be in major cities or close enough to major cities where there would be sufficient psychologists to be able to do the work.
4:35 p.m.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
That's true, yes.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Dr. Fletcher, I'll ask you to respond to this as well. We heard some evidence on Monday, and I think I'm hearing both of you saying the opposite today: that child molestation was a mental illness, that it was not curable, but that it was treatable. Would you agree with that assessment of the condition?
Dr. Marshall, you could start.
Then, Dr. Fletcher, could I have your response?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
I just think that's an inappropriate way to look at the problem. A lot of human behaviours that are persistent are not best viewed as a disease process, but as a learned, habitual behaviour that's satisfying some kind of need. Then you look at how this person could satisfy those needs in a more appropriate way that is less destructive to himself and to others. That's a better way to think about this.
The notion of “cure” applies to things like physical diseases, quite sensibly, but I don't think it's the way to look at this. What we're trying to do is reduce the tendency to hurt others in the pursuit of the same needs that the rest of us pursue but in more appropriate and less destructive ways. That's the aim of the programs. That's the way we think about it. We don't think about it in those psychiatric terms.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I'm sorry, Dr. Fletcher, just before we go to you...
Dr. Marshall, you're a psychologist, not a psychiatrist...?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Rockwood Psychological Services, As an Individual
Yes. This is not an argument between psychologists and psychiatrists, however; it's just a different construction on the way of looking at the problem.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
4:35 p.m.
Sexual Deviance Specialist, Office of the Attorney General of Prince Edward Island
No. I should clarify that. I'm a clinical social worker. My background was in mental health clinics and psychiatric hospitals in doing clinical work. Then, about 23 years ago, I specialized and got training in this area.
But to respond to your question, I agree with Dr. Marshall. Sometimes you get into a case of semantics. To me, mental illness is a biological process such as schizophrenia, where you can actually see that there's something biologically going on with the person. There has been no research that has identified that as being present in someone who is a child molester. Even among child molesters, if you look at the term “pedophile”, in North America The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is what's used primarily for diagnosing mental disorders, and a lot of the people I see who have sexually molested a child don't even qualify for the diagnosis of pedophile, which really refers to someone who has a persistent sexual preference for prepubescent children.
Sometimes the reasons for molesting a child have nothing to do with sexual preference. It's a behavioural choice--something a person has learned to do. It provides them with some sort of relief of an emotional or psychological need they're experiencing and they persist in it due to the lack of alternatives.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Ms. Hannem, I don't think the committee has heard from you before, or your association. Could you tell us about the CCJA?
4:35 p.m.
Chair, Policy Review Committee, Canadian Criminal Justice Association
The CCJA is one of the longest-standing non-governmental organizations of professionals and individuals who are interested in criminal justice issues. The CCJA was founded in 1919. We have actually testified before both Houses at committees on numerous occasions in the past. I've been chair of the committee for about four years and have testified several times. It's not always me, but various members....
We have over 800 members across Canada, most of whom are professionals or who have some sort of educational background in criminal justice. We try to mobilize the individual collective knowledge of our members to provide some balanced research-based analysis on criminal justice policy in Canada.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
What professional backgrounds would most of your members have?
4:35 p.m.
Chair, Policy Review Committee, Canadian Criminal Justice Association
We have a range. Some of them have been correctional workers or police officers, social workers, psychologists, and criminologists, or do research or teach in university and college systems. We have a very wide range of people and expertise.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Both you and Dr. Marshall made reference to the reputation Canada had--and I emphasize the past there. Has it been recognized by international bodies that we in fact were the leading country in the world in terms of treatment of sexual offenders towards children?