Evidence of meeting #49 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie McAuley  Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Craig Grimes  Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Mia Dauvergne  Senior Analyst, Policing Services Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Carole Morency  Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

3:45 p.m.

Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Craig Grimes

What I can tell you about those lines and about how they're changing is that if there were mandatory minimums in place in 2005, and there were more cases going into custody, and those mandatory minimums were short, then it's possible that you would see an increase in those shorter sentences, which would change the distribution we're seeing in this chart on page 14.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Okay. I appreciate that.

My first question was a general question on unreported crimes. If I don't have it here, I should have brought it. I think it was from the Macdonald-Laurier Institute. I may be wrong.

Can you give us any comment on how you measure unreported crime?

3:45 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Julie McAuley

Certainly. Unreported crime is measured by Statistics Canada through the general social survey on victimization. That is a survey of Canadians aged 15 or older. Eight specific offence categories are asked about.

Based on the results released earlier this year, we know that one-quarter of Canadians 15 years of age or older reported being victims of a crime in the 12 months preceding this survey. Just under one-third of the Canadians who had been victimized reported that victimization to the police, and that's slightly down from 2004.

Now, one thing we do need to keep in mind with these data is that it is the individual's perception of the situation. It has not been an offence that has been substantiated by the police.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Okay.

Frankly, those are the questions I had. I don't know if Mr. Lee or Madam Jennings would like to take up the rest of the time.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

We'll move to Monsieur Ménard.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

First of all, my apologies for being late. I did my utmost, but after question period, I had to meet with reporters who were intent upon obtaining explanations about what took place yesterday evening in committee, as well as with people who worked on the issue.

I would also like to emphasize that I saw this information for the first time here. Even if I had had knowledge of it earlier, it would nevertheless be impossible to have a good understanding of the meaning of these statistics. I do however attach a tremendous importance to them. I am familiar with Statistics Canada and I am convinced that it is one of the best organizations in the world, overall. I often read the publications it puts out.

However, statistics such as these do not read out in the way you have just read them out. One must study them; otherwise, one only retains a few aspects. I had asked that we be provided with this document a little bit ahead of time. I do not know when it was provided, but I believe that my assistant received it yesterday, whereas I sat in committee until 10:30 p.m. Therefore, when we ask you to forward documentation within a certain timeframe, I would be grateful if this could be done a little sooner.

I do not see how this will assist me with the votes that we are going to have this very afternoon, and it is very unfortunate.

Defence lawyers have told us, during the course of our hearings, that the courts had established, as a matter of principle in cases of sexual offences against children, that the rule would be jail time. My impression is that this is not what is reflected in your statistics.

Could you enlighten my in this regard?

3:50 p.m.

Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Craig Grimes

The sexual offences against children that we can identify in the courts are identified on page 13, which shows the most serious offences in cases containing at least one guilty verdict. The top line shows the increase in the use of custody for those types of offences. In 2008-2009, it's approximately 65%, which is quite a bit more than what you see in criminal court generally, where use of custody is around 34%.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

When you speak of 34% in general, does that correspond to the other types of offences?

3:50 p.m.

Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Craig Grimes

It's for all offences in criminal court. I can provide a more detailed breakdown of that if you would like.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I wish to understand you properly. You are saying that 34% of the sentences handed down generally in Canada are prison sentences. Is that what you are saying?

3:50 p.m.

Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Craig Grimes

That's correct.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

All right. Let us come back to the case of sexual offences. On page 13, it says: "[...] in "other sexual offence" cases in adult criminal courts [...]". What I want to know is if your statistics confirm the opinion provided to us by defence lawyers, namely that the courts have established that, with regard to sexual offences against children, the rule would be prison time. That does not come out on page 13, because it talks about "other sexual offence cases".

3:55 p.m.

Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Craig Grimes

I can't confirm the statement by a previous witness. I can talk about the data that I have access to and can analyze, and I can show you the outcomes of criminal court cases that have child victims for those offences that I can identify. That doesn't include sexual assault, because in sexual assault you can't identify the age of the victim from the Criminal Code section. That's the way the data are collected in criminal court—by section, subsection, and paragraph--so it's not possible to differentiate a young victim from an adult victim by using the court data.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

There are however specific types of sexual assaults or sexual offences against children. You are unable to provide us with statistics on these specific types of offences?

3:55 p.m.

Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Craig Grimes

So you're talking about sexual interference, invitation to sexual touching, and those kinds of offences.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I am not talking only about that. It could go from sexual relations with youth all the way to rape; it encompasses all of the possible offences. There are at least 20 sexual offences in the bill we have before us and these are all sexual offences against children. Are you telling us that you are unable to provide statistics by category of offence?

3:55 p.m.

Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Craig Grimes

It's not possible to isolate any information on the victim for sexual assault using simply the information we collect based upon the Criminal Code. Sections 271, 272, and 273 don't have any details on the victim. It's the nature of the offence, not the victim, that is included in the Criminal Code, so it's not possible to differentiate for sexual assault, other than by using the data that we get from police services, which indicate approximately 53% are against young people.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you. We'll go to Mr. Martin...Mr. Comartin for seven minutes.

February 16th, 2011 / 3:55 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I don't want to be confused with those other Martins, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, witnesses, for being here.

I want to follow up on this, because you're leaving some confusion. The initial data that you have here on page 5 through to about page 9 all relate to offences against children.

3:55 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Julie McAuley

In the presentation we have tried to show all of the sexual offences committed against children that are the subject of this bill. To go back to the point of Mr. Ménard, if you look on the other sexual offences slide, in the notes you will see exactly which sections of the Criminal Code we are referring to and have included in those data. When you look at the information from the police, because we are looking at the victim's side of the police-reported data--

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Let me stop you, Ms. McAuley, because again we are short of time. As I'm reading it, these are reported by the police, but those first eight slides are not charges or convictions.

3:55 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Julie McAuley

These are police-reported data. Slide number 3 includes the child pornography, because those are offences that we know about that have come to the attention of the police. However, for all the other information that looks at the age or characteristics of the victim, we cannot include child pornography because we do not have a victim record based on the police data we have.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Can I then take you to the slide with the age of the perpetrators? What slide is that?

3:55 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Julie McAuley

We have the ages of the victims on slides 4 and 5.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I'm looking for the perpetrator. It was on page 14 of the material in the book you sent us Monday evening.