Evidence of meeting #50 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was court.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carole Morency  Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Jean-Guy Dagenais  President, Association des policières et policiers provinciaux du Québec
Hirsch Greenberg  Member of the Board of Directors, Canadian Criminal Justice Association

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Very briefly, Mr. Chair, I just wanted to clarify this for Mr. Comartin, because I think he misunderstood the point I was making earlier. The point I was making is simply this. We're dealing here with sentences of people who have been convicted of sexually exploiting a child in some way. A condition has been imposed by a judge. Now the opposition is saying that it needs the judge to actually specify every network these individuals are not allowed to utilize, so that if in the future they're found to be using some digital network, another judge won't find them not to be in compliance with their sentence conditions.

That strikes me as being the opposite of the argument they're typically making on the other side of this room, which is that we can rely on the discretion of the courts, that we don't need to tie their hands because they know the circumstances of the case, and that they're going to use their discretion judiciously so we can rely on them to impose the right sentence and we don't have to say in our legislation that it should be any kind of a minimum sentence. Yet in this case, they think that some judge is going to say—if I can use Mr. Lee's example—“Oh, this offender set his home alarm system, which operates over a digital network, so we're going to find that he's not in compliance with his sentence condition”. Then what...? Send him back to jail because he set his home alarm system?

That strikes me as saying they don't have much confidence in the discretion of the court. That was the point I was trying to make. I just want to clarify that for Mr. Comartin.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Okay.

Anybody else?

Monsieur Ménard.

Then we'll go to Mr. Comartin again.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I have a very simple question. These days, all taxi companies have their own communications systems. Are they digital networks?

4:10 p.m.

Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Carole Morency

I can refer the committee back to the undertaking written response that I provided, where I provided our understanding. If it's a network that facilitates communication from one to another—you can have public-private—I'm not sure if that's a network in the same sense.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Okay. Truckers have the same kinds of systems; they use them to communicate. Let's say that a person working as a cab driver is convicted of something. I am sure that the judge is going to let him use the cab company's digital network. But, if he loses his job, he cannot get another one as a truck driver because he will no longer be complying with the condition. I think that is clearly an abuse. The general nature of the court's order is an abuse.

When you want to restrict someone's rights, you must be more specific than vague. That is why Mr. Lee's proposed amendment is perfectly appropriate and justifiable. I gave you the example of the person who wants to move from driving a cab to a truck, maybe even a truck in a mine. All three of those jobs involve working with digital networks with which employees communicate with each other.

If you want to prohibit someone from doing something, you have to tell him exactly what it is. If you don't, you have prohibited him from using all networks when you wanted to prohibit him from using one. The objective of the section was to prohibit access to one network, but it actually prohibits access to all other networks of the same kind.

In my opinion, the amendment that Mr. Lee has introduced is an important one.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Mr. Comartin.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Well, I think my comments are fairly similar. As opposed to Mr. Dechert's viewpoint of this amendment, it seems to me that what we're doing is just the opposite. We're saying to the judiciary, “You have this additional authority and we would like you to use it”.

Mr. Lemay's point is very well taken in terms of the convicted person knowing what they can't do, but it also allows the judges to be very specific. If we do get that new technology, I believe the wording--the government wording in the existing bill, plus this amendment--would allow the court to say that it's not just the Internet, that it's this whole new system, and you're not allowed to use that either, except under these conditions. That's really the way I see this amendment and why I think we should support it.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

Ms. Jennings.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

With all due respect to my colleagues, Maître Ménard, Maître Lemay, and Maître Comartin, I cannot agree with them. Any judge or crown prosecutor who takes his or her responsibilities seriously would in fact make a sentencing case as to which digital networks should be included in any order in the sentencing. Even where an individual represents himself or herself...and I'm not sure that in 80% of criminal trials the accused defends himself or herself. I'd like to see that particular figure. I do understand that in civil cases we have a high percentage. But I would like to see that figure. That's a separate argument.

Let's say an individual is in the situation that Mr. Ménard is talking about. You're a taxi driver and you may become a truck driver. From there, you may become a delivery guy for some mining company or other transport company. I cannot believe that an individual would not be in a position, when it came to sentencing, to explain to the judge, “I need to be able to communicate on this because I'm a taxi driver and, by the way, I also have my licence to drive heavy trucks, so that may be a secondary employment for me”.

But any judge.... I mean, Maître Ménard has been in positions of authority in the past; as a minister, I cannot believe he did not take his responsibilities seriously. I know he did. I am confident that crown prosecutors, even in Quebec, as underpaid and overworked as they are--and I certainly agree they are, in comparison to their counterparts in other provinces--would not make a case for orders by the court, by the judge, that would be so broad as to deny an offender the possibility of being able to be employed, to keep their employment, and, if that offender were not represented by counsel, that the offender would not in fact make the case. If the offender is represented by a lawyer, it's incumbent on that lawyer to make the case as to exactly what kinds of networks this individual, this offender, needs to have access to in order to be gainfully employed.

So Liberals will not be supporting this amendment.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

Monsieur Lemay.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I'm sorry. I have a point of order. Is Mr. Lee withdrawing the amendment?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I'm not sure that's--

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Why are we having the debate if he's going to withdraw the amendment?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Mr. Lee, are you withdrawing the amendment?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

No, I didn't say I was withdrawing the amendment.

I'm not too sure that my colleague got the label right either. There's at least one Liberal who will be supporting the amendment.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Well, the official opposition, which is represented by--

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right. You know what...?

Monsieur Lemay, can you make it quick?

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I can be very quick, Mr. Chair.

The point that my colleague has just raised really causes me some difficulty. To make a point like that, she really cannot have gone into too many courts very often, especially in recent years and especially to see criminal cases.

Ms. Jennings, the latest figures that we have available show that 80% of people in court represent themselves. With probation or prohibition orders running to three or four pages, the court has to explain it all line by line to the person on whom the penalty is about to be imposed.

I am trying to convince my colleague not to let things be too open-ended at this point and thereby have the person appearing in court again with another request, or even being arrested again and having another trial. One simple amendment passed here today would be specific enough to allow the court to actually make a decision. The amendment seems to me to be so simple and so useful. I find it deplorable that the Liberal party, at least a part of it, is opposed.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Merci.

We'll go to Ms. Jennings and then Mr. Comartin.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Yes. Simply to correct the record, the official opposition will not be supporting this amendment. A Liberal MP is proposing the amendment and has made it clear he will be voting in favour of it.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I think we understood.

Mr. Comartin.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I have two quick points, Mr. Chair. I don't think we want to prolong this given the inevitability that's coming.

One, you have to appreciate that what we're trying to do here—those of us who are supporting this—is to make it easier for police and prosecutors to be able to prosecute breaches of this type of conduct. The more specific it is, the better chance they have of being able to lay the charge and getting a conviction. The more general it is in terms of the wording, the more difficult the job they're going to have.

I will make one final point with regard to our judiciary. I've been as supportive as anybody on this committee of our judiciary. I have the greatest respect for them, but I also know they're not perfect. Using one example in terms of legislation we've historically passed that required judicial determination, I'll use the requirement to order DNA samples to be taken. In the first four years of that law having been passed, in only 50% of the cases where DNA was mandatory did our judges do it. It was overlooked. Our crowns were way too busy. They didn't draw it to their attention. The judges missed it.

To expect that somehow magically in this case, as was suggested by my colleague from the Liberals, they are automatically going to do this is way beyond the reality of how our courts function.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

We're still dealing with amendment Liberal-1.

I will call the question on the amendment and we'll do a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

We'll move to the actual clause 8 as unamended.

(Clause 8 agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1)

You'll note that clauses 9 through 14 do not have any proposed amendments. I'm proposing that we group those.

Shall clauses 9 through 14 carry?

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Chair, I wouldn't see clauses 13 and 14 being included in this. I understand why you would group clauses 9, 10, 11, and 12, but we're creating new offences in clauses 13 and 14. Those are substantially different.