Justice Committee on March 23rd, 2011

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

All right, but you can understand that as a legislator I have to call it evidence, and I have to listen to the observations that Canadians across the country are making. Is that understandable to you?

[Prof. Susan Reid]

Absolutely, that's understandable.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

So, for example, when I hear that the residents of this municipality in Saskatchewan have observed a tendency to grant repeated escalating periods of probation or community-based sentencing resulting in the immediate return of young offenders to dysfunctional situations, you would agree with me that I can't simply discount that.

[Prof. Susan Reid]

No, but I don't see that as evidence in respect of procedure.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That's right, and that's my point. When we talk about evidence-based decision-making, it sometimes comes down to a question of what evidence we want to accept and what evidence we don't want to accept. But as a legislator, I can't simply ignore the evidence of the 47 witnesses whom Justice Nunn heard when he came to his recommendations, nor can I ignore the evidence of Canadians across the country who see repeated problems in the implementation of our youth criminal justice system. Therefore, when we come to what are focused and targeted procedural improvements proposed in Bill C-4, I need to rely on that evidence. That's simply the point I wanted to make in our conversation, and I appreciate your letting me make it.

Do I have any more time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

No, you don't.

Before we allow our witnesses to leave, I want to raise this with Mr. Wamback. Mr. Comartin had suggested that three attorneys general of the provinces in Canada had raised concerns about the legislation. I wanted to let you know that those were technical amendments. They had identified a couple of items within the legislation that seemed to produce a result contrary to what was intended. Those attorneys general support the general direction of this bill, so I wanted to make sure that this was clear. Certainly, I don't recall those attorneys general speaking out against this bill, but they did want to raise those technical amendments. I would expect there would be some amendments coming forward to address them.

[Joseph Wamback]

Mr. Chair, your comments to me now make sense.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We will suspend until the votes are done.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I reconvene the meeting. We're continuing our review of Bill C-4, An Act to amend the Youth Criminal Justice Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts.

We have three witnesses with us. First of all, representing UNICEF Canada, we have Marvin Bernstein, chief advisor, advocacy. Welcome. We also have, representing the Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared, Bruno Serre, board member and also group leader of family meetings. Finally, by video conference from the beautiful city of Victoria, we have as individuals, Manjit Virk and Suman Virk.

To all of our witnesses, I want to apologize for the delay in getting to you. Unfortunately, we had some unexpected votes, so we had to suspend the meeting for some 20 or 25 minutes.

Your opportunity to provide testimony today is going to be limited. I'm going to provide each of you with five minutes to present. Unfortunately, we will not have time for questions, due to the vote.

Why don't we begin with Mr. Bernstein? You've got five minutes.

[Marvin Bernstein, Chief Advisor, Advocacy, UNICEF Canada]

Thank you.

I'll just indicate that there is a full submission not yet translated that will be coming to the committee. There are some summary notes provided that I believe have been translated. There is a UNICEF Canada position statement that was just formulated last night. There isn't enough time to go through it in my opening remarks, but that can be transmitted to the committee.

I appreciate the opportunity to be here, even in an abbreviated capacity. I did want to indicate that I have 28 years of child welfare experience in the province of Ontario, in various capacities. That's outlined in the summary notes. I recently spent five years as the provincial children's advocate in the province of Saskatchewan, as an independent officer of the legislature. I then came back to Ontario and have been appointed as the chief advisor, advocacy, with an emphasis on our Canadian children, and that position started roughly six months ago.

I did want to indicate that I participated in the round table discussions in Regina, Saskatchewan, in 2008, with the Minister of Justice, Minister Nicholson, and the provincial minister, Don Morgan. I'm very pleased, finally, to see the round table discussions' roll-up. That's very consistent with the tenor of the comments made in the province of Saskatchewan.

I also wanted to reinforce the point and to follow up on comments made by Kathy Vandergrift. She testified before this committee on June 10, 2010. At that point she referenced a Senate committee report, “Children: The Silenced Citizens”. She said there was some indication by Justice Canada that there is an assessment of compliance with international treaties such as the Convention on the Rights of the Child. I've read through the transcript, and there seems to be some indication on the part of this committee, or some members of this committee, that efforts would be made to retrieve that assessment, or to determine whether or not it existed, and then to provide a copy not only to the committee but to Ms. Vandergrift. When I communicated with her this past weekend, she said she hadn't received any further notification from the committee as to the status of that child impact assessment report.

I raise this because our position—and this will appear in the detailed brief—is that the proposed amendments to Bill C-4, for the most part, would be incompatible and contrary to the principles set out in the Convention on the Rights of the Child; would be inconsistent with recommendations Canada made in the concluding observations by the Committee on the Rights of the Child in 2003; would be inconsistent with facets of general comment 10, which speaks to the issue of juvenile justice. The concluding observations also relate to the best interests of children, and there are concerns in our submission with respect to the proposed amendments in Bill C-4.

So I would certainly urge this committee to make further efforts to secure that report, if it exists, and to determine whether or not there is compliance with Canada's international obligations, having ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child. If there is an opportunity to provide that report to UNICEF Canada, I would appreciate an opportunity to respond, having considered the report as to whether or not Bill C-4 would be consistent with the human rights obligations that are set out in the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to call it there. You're out of time.

[Marvin Bernstein]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We move to Monsieur Bruno Serre. You have cinq minutes.

[Bruno Serre, Board Member and Group Leader of family meetings, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared]

Good afternoon, and thank you for having me.

My name is Bruno Serre. My daughter Brigitte was killed on January 25, 2006. I have been on the AFPAD board of directors for three-and-a-half years. I am here for personal reasons, but I share the views of many of the victims who have gone through what I have.

My daughter was murdered by two 18-year-olds, Sébastien Simon and Tommy Gagné. They stabbed her 72 times with a knife and punched her and kicked her in the head repeatedly. On that January 25 night, she had no hope of escape. Sébastien Simon had quite the record, he had a history of violent behaviour and had gone through a number of youth centres beginning at a young age. He has no conscience or scruples. He showed no remorse. Later that same night, after committing their crime, Sébastien Simon, Tommy Gagné and their accomplices went to a motel with a bunch of prostitutes. The next day, Sébastien Simon got tattoos on his forearms that said Born to kill and Born to die. He had turned 18 just a few months earlier.

I support Bill C-4 because I think we need to do a better job of controlling young offenders so we don't have tragedies like mine happening again. It is imperative to protect the public from repeat young offenders with a history of violent behaviour.

This bill would serve as a useful tool for judges and police officers. It would make it possible to apply extrajudicial measures, which would give society the ability to check up on individuals whose records showed a progression towards violent behaviour. Furthermore, placing a young person whose behaviour had endangered others in detention would be a good thing and, in my view, a deterrent.

Youth who commit serious crimes, such as murder, attempted murder, manslaughter and sexual assault, should be sentenced as adults. Releasing their names to the public would be another way to protect society.

We need to take steps to prevent crime, not just react to it. The association I belong to represents victims' families in Quebec. Many of the victims I meet say we need to impose tougher measures on violent young offenders.

I accompanied the family of young Francesca Saint-Pierre to court. She was a 14-year-old who was beaten to death by a 15-year-old. He was sentenced to seven years, so four years of detention without parole and three years in a detention home. Seven years for premeditated murder. Imagine how her family reacted to that sentence.

Francesca had complained about the young offender in question when they both lived in the same centre. Had he been in detention, this tragedy would probably never have happened. We have an obligation to protect the public from young people with a history of violent behaviour and no respect for human life. Unfortunately, there are more and more of them, and their violence knows no bounds. Bill C-4 may help to deter some of them. One thing is for sure, once in detention, they will have time to think about the consequences of their actions. These are measures victims' families have long been waiting for.

I do not think the status quo is the answer. We have to give prosecutors, judges and police officers tools to ensure that young offenders receive sentences commensurate with the severity of their crimes, not just a slap on the wrist. We have to send a clear message. We have to protect society against youth who are violent repeat offenders.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Merci.

Now we'll move to Victoria.

Mr. and Mrs. Virk, you have five minutes.

[Manjit Virk, As an Individual]

Our story is similar to Bruno's story. Our daughter, in 1997, was killed by her peers and it made national and international headlines. That crime, especially in Victoria, a beautiful city...it was never heard of.

We as victims have suffered over 10 years of a legal ordeal and a quagmire, and we've felt that the system was too lenient for the criminals, especially when Kelly Ellard, who killed our daughter, got appeal after appeal. She exhausted all of her chances of appeal with the taxpayers' money and put our life on hold.

But we are glad that now the government is thinking of giving some attention to the victims as well, not only to the offenders, and I share my sentiments with Bruno that the law has to treat them like adults. If they are doing adult crimes, they have to be treated like adults. Also, when their names are published, people will know who they are so these young people cannot hide behind the law, because their slate will be clean no more.

We are involved with crime prevention in Victoria now. We go to different schools and communities and speak to the young people face to face, pleading with them to try to live a healthy, wholesome life, free from bullying and violence. It has an impact on people. I have also written a book that tells our story. We have developed a DVD, which focuses on young people, their violence and bullying, telling our story. So these are the tools that are very powerful, and I think it's making a difference in young people's lives.

We hope that we'll continue to do that and encourage our young people to inculcate good habits and live a wholesome life, rather than squandering their life on drugs, loneliness, alcohol, and bullying. In Victoria and in British Columbia there is enough awareness of bullying and violence now in the school system, and we are doing our part.

Now to my wife....

[Suman Virk, As an Individual]

As victims of crime, we have found that there has not been enough emphasis on the crimes that are being committed by these young people and the impact on the general public. A lot of children were looking up to the two individuals who took our daughter's life. They have glorified violence by the video games and rap music, so we have to get to what is causing our children to be losing control.

Definitely, I think if we have legislation that addresses this problem, maybe our children will think twice about harming one another. I think we have to speak up, because that's what causes kids to bully. It's because everybody keeps their secret. So definitely I think if a child commits a serious crime, society has the right to know who they are so they can protect themselves. Keeping their identity hidden is not helping the child or anyone else. I think that should be mandatory for all youth who commit serious crimes.

What we've learned is that most of these children don't change. What they do as teenagers they continue through the rest of their lives, so definitely early intervention is the key, starting with programs for youth counselling. We see more and more people with depression and other mental health issues. That should also be addressed for our youth, not just locking them up somewhere, but also giving them the mental help and attention they need.

There's a big spectrum here, but since we're discussing the legal system, I think we do need harsher penalties. If I had it my way, I'd have the legal system go a lot faster, too, because, as my husband said, we have to go through three different trials for one crime. To us that makes no sense, so I hope that can also be addressed.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you to all of our witnesses.

Mr. Serre and Mr. and Mrs. Virk, thank you for sharing your stories. We encourage you to continue to do so.

Here in Ottawa we're doing our very best to try to address some of the crime challenges we have in Canada, and your testimony is very helpful as we move forward with this Bill C-4.

Thank you to all of you.

The meeting is adjourned.