Justice Committee on March 29th, 2010

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You have two and a half minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

We haven't heard much--and I'm speaking specifically of Alberta and the territories--about the stereotypical old gangs, the Mafia, the Cosa Nostra, that type that mostly came out of the prohibition years. Do they have any significant presence in Alberta?

[Chief Michael Boyd]

Of the old gangs, there are the obviously traditional organized crime gangs, but in recent years a lot of other new gangs have been formed. One of the things that's interesting is that we're seeing mergers of interest, whereas at one time, some years earlier in my career, I would say, most gangs or organized crime groups stuck to themselves and did their own thing.

That's not what the trend is these days. They come together. There are mergers of interest where money can be made; it's for that reason that you see those mergers come together.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Inspector Imgrund.

[Insp Clemens Imgrund]

On a day-to-day basis, we in the intelligence community see exactly what Chief Boyd is speaking to; I would like to confirm that it's exactly the case. But to add to that, yes, we do see the traditional organized crime groups. It's just that how they interrelate with other organized crime groups is evolving.

The traditional ones definitely do still exist in this province. What is interesting, of course, is that their level of sophistication is much greater due to the length of time that they've been engaged in these activities.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Would they have contacts with organized crime groups elsewhere in the country or internationally?

[Insp Clemens Imgrund]

Oh, absolutely. Not only do they have contact, but very often the organized crime groups expand across the country. So certainly, there's leadership outside of the province in some cases.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I have a quick question on the proceeds of crime.

I think we're getting the same response across the country. There's very little use, if any, of the federal legislation, and much more use of provincial legislation because of the balance of probabilities versus proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or even the reverse onus.

Is it the same in Alberta? How successful are you in using the provincial legislation?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

We are fairly new to the provincial legislative game. It's only been in place for about a year. It has been extremely successful and it grows monthly.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Where do the--

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

That's it.

Mr. Rathgeber.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your excellent presentations and for your service in keeping Canadians safe.

Chief Boyd, I listened with interest to your concerns about judicial interim release and show cause hearings. I am certainly sympathetic, but like my friend, Mr. Murphy, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to fix it. I thought I might explore some of your impressions in a little more detail.

You indicated your experience and said that hundreds of individuals commit crimes when they're on judicial interim release. Does your department keep specific statistics on how many crimes are committed by individuals while they're on release from other offences?

[Chief Michael Boyd]

In 2006 we did a study here in Edmonton. We looked at it and identified 137 people who had been arrested over 100 times in five years. Now, we stopped at 137, but we probably could have gone up to 237.

When we brought the backgrounds forward and diagrammed them out quite differently from the justice system partners' traditional look at it, it was just horrendous as to, first of all, why that level of crime existed, and then why our justice system was so bogged down and clogged up with what was going on.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Put yourself in my seat as a legislator. If you were to make justices of the peace and judges take into account those reports, which you suggest they are not, other than making them provide reasons for their decisions to release or not release somebody, how would you make it mandatory?

[Chief Michael Boyd]

It's hard for me to fathom how a person could be out of custody and operating in the community on 10 existing bails. It's just beyond my imagination how that could happen. That mere fact tells me that we have a repeat offender. To disregard that kind of information....

By the way, within the province of Alberta, I think fewer judges are involved in dealing with bail because of the process that's been set up here with justices of the peace. There are more justices of the peace who would come into contact with bail issues.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You indicated the meaninglessness of the words “keep the peace and be of good behaviour”. Again, if you were a legislator, how would you have those words read? What would you change? What should be the condition on a person's release?

[Chief Michael Boyd]

Well, I think the words are just so overused that they don't mean anything anymore. I'm not sure whether I would replace those words. I think any of us who work in the system understand what that's supposed to mean, but it doesn't seem to have the kind of effect we would hope for.

If someone is re-arrested after being told to be of good behaviour and keep the peace, if they violate that, it would seem rather obvious that they didn't have the same respect for the courts as we would hope.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I want to change gears here. I don't know if you're aware of this, but we're going to be hearing this afternoon from Mr. Mahamad Accord from the Alberta Somali community. As you know or as the members will certainly hear this afternoon, the Somalian community has had some problems with respect to its involvement in organized crime. Tragically, a number of members of that community have been murdered.

So my question on that is twofold. In your view, why do so many young Somalians--for the most part from Toronto, the GTA--end up being lured to Edmonton to get involved in drug trafficking and why do so many of them end up murdered? Thirdly, why are so many of those murders unsolved?

[Chief Michael Boyd]

First of all, I would say they have come to pretty fertile ground here in Alberta. Organized crime goes after the money. Certainly in the past, and even more so before the tougher economic times, the money was here in Alberta. That would provide the opportunity for individuals committing crimes--and especially for organized crime--to come to a place like Alberta.

But there is conflict within organized crime, and often when you see that conflict played out, there's violence. In a number of cases, we have seen many individuals murdered because of their connection with organized crime--not just those in the Somali community.

I don't want to prejudice any unsolved investigations here by saying more than I ought to, but I think these cases are often tougher to solve. Witnesses can be reluctant to testify. They're concerned about the protections that would be afforded to them.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You have one and a half minutes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Switching to Chief Hanson, then, I thank you for your words as well, Chief, with respect to technological advancement.

I appreciate that criminals are becoming more sophisticated, but if I heard you correctly, you were suggesting that we might consider allowing police to intercept cellphone transmission and require service providers to provide IP addresses without warrant.

I have two questions. How do you think the courts would respond to that? Do you think the public is ready to have cellphone transmission monitored without warrant?

[Chief Rick Hanson]

I don't think I said that; we recognize we'd have to have a lawful intercept order in place--part VI--in order to intercept private communication.

What we're saying is to have the ability to do it.... Subscriber information is not available in regard to just straight out who has what number; currently it's not easy to obtain, and yet it's information that should be easy to obtain. The simple information around who is registered to a particular phone should just be public information or should be easy to obtain for the police.

Secondly, it's to have access, or in other words, to be able to access with the lawful authorities. Some of the technology that's out there is absolutely critical. Currently we don't have that. It's just not where it should be, that requirement for technology companies to have access to some of the technology that exists out there, such that when the police have a lawful order, they can access the information that's required. It's not there.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you for that important clarification.

I expect that my time is up, Mr. Chair.