Justice Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

A national sex offender registry is something we should be pursuing?

[Diane Redsky]

Yes. There need to be the provinces. The vice teams we have across the country need to be leading that strategy, along with community-based agencies that are impacted the most by the activities.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Should we have harsher sentences for people who prey upon groups like aboriginal groups?

[Diane Redsky]

Absolutely. Even with the exploitation. We've had one conviction in Canada since we changed the law in 1997. As of last year, seven Canadians were charged with crimes against children in other countries. Obviously, there's a difference there.

As community-based and enforcement...we have to be able to be a step ahead of these organized crimes strategically, and we're not. We can't even keep up with how organized they get. So until we put some resources in and have the conversation and have the.... Everybody has a little piece of the information, so I bet you building a national strategy is going to have a huge impact when it comes to the activities that organized crime has been able to get away with, because we're so disconnected.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move back to Mrs. Mendes. Five minutes.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome you to the table, Mrs. Orvis. If at all possible, I'd like to give you a few minutes to tell us how you see organized crime impacting on your community, and what we could do to help you fight against it.

[Velma Orvis, Member, Grandmothers Council, Grandmothers Protecting our Children]

Yes.

Four years ago, we formed a grandmothers' circle, Grandmothers Protecting our Children, because some children were being abused by their grandfather up north. He was in the penal system, and when his parole came up, 40 members of his community came to ask for him to go back home, because he was their guide and leader. He went back home and he impregnated his granddaughter. And then three other children came forward and said he had molested them. This is why we do our sacred walk: for the protection of children.

Also, last month we made arrangements with Ndinawe and Ma Mawi, through Diane, and Ray too. We grandmothers went out on the streets two evenings in a row with the people who check on the kids that are out on the street. We were really well received by the youth because they said they didn't think anyone cared about them; they didn't think anyone was concerned about them or thought about them. We're going to continue this.

We had a conference on the exploitation of our youth. They say, “Dear John”. Well, he's not a john when he's having sex with someone under age. He should be called what he is. He's a pedophile, he's a perpetrator, and he's a predator. That's what he is. He's not a john, and he should be dealt with in the court system as a pedophile.

I feel really strongly about this, and so do all the kookums.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

But by reaching out to these youth on the street, besides giving them some comfort, how do you think you'll be able to bring them to have a more participatory part in the community? How would you bring them back?

[Velma Orvis]

Now that they know someone cares--and I've made a commitment to go out every month to visit them--I believe that if we do this, if the kookums do this and visit them, I really believe they will turn around. I really don't believe they want that life. They were coerced into it.

The reason I was late this morning was that I was dealing with a young lady who had been sexually abused as a minor, and her daughter is going through the same thing. I couldn't just say that I had to go because I had to be here at 10:30.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

We understand.

If I have a few more minutes, I would like to ask you, Ms. Spillett, if a social economy has been in any way something you've looked at to provide opportunities for the funding.

That question is for any of you who would like to address it. I include the development economy.

[Leslie Spillett]

That is absolutely a place where we need to look, and we have been looking. We have a small program for women at Ka Ni Kanichihk called the self-employment project for aboriginal women. We look at social economy as an economic alternative. We'd like to really build on that, but the resources to try to build that piece are quite limited.

I've done some travelling, and one of the places I've travelled to is New Zealand. The Maori population has really used their cultural heritage to be a significant part of the tourism industry. It's quite remarkable. I think we have so much here.

I want to just get in one little thing. Canada needs to look at the Swedish model with regard to prostitution as a way to really undermine these organized criminal gangs--the Mafia, the biker gangs, the Russian gangs, the Asian gangs, the triads. You need to really begin to look at that Swedish model to take the economic engine out of that.

Drugs are another thing. I think we need to decriminalize some parts of the drug.... But that's another story.

They make money, and they are huge. Absolutely, criminalize those guys who are the masterminds of organized crime in Canada and internationally. They are internationally based. These guys whip in and out. Talk about free trade; they have it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We are going to go to Madame Mourani, for five minutes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, ladies. Thank you for being with us.

My question is for Ms. Spillett.

You just said a magic word, "Swedish". Myself, and this is my personal view, I like the Swedish approach. Ms. Orvis said that people who use young prostitutes are not johns, they are pedophiles. I am glad she said that. A lot of young people, boys and girls, start working as prostitutes at 12 or 13 years old. Unfortunately, there are a lot more girls than boys. When they are adults, when they are 18, even if there is no real difference between 16 and 18, they have already had a "career" in prostitution for several years. When you are 12 or 13, you don't choose to be a prostitute; you are a victim. When you are 18 or 19, but you started prostituting yourself at 12, you are also a victim.

I am very glad you brought up the Swedish approach, and I would like you to tell us some more about it. This committee has already formed a subcommittee to study solicitation. That is a fairly specific question. I would like you to tell us what Sweden has done to eliminate human trafficking within its borders.

[Leslie Spillett]

The resources I would like to quote are Victor Malarek's books, called The Johns and The Natashas. He has done a really good job in terms of analyzing this.

In my very limited understanding, the Swedish model criminalizes the demand side, and there is no criminalization for the women who are prostitutes. This has had a profound impact on the so-called sex trade or flesh trade in Sweden. It's reduced prostitution to the low percentiles from a significant sex trade in the past. And it's done so by education and legislation going hand in hand to tell men that just because there's a monetary transaction, it doesn't mean that harm has not been committed. So there is a very definite education piece of it, but there is also the other piece of it, which is that it criminalizes the people who purchase sex. I think it's worthwhile looking at that, I really do.

Canada is a little bit behind. As a country that values progress and human rights, this model is a real, viable alternative to what we have in Canada now. In fact, right now, we're criminalizing the women.

[A voice]

We're prostituting women.

[Leslie Spillett]

I know my sister, Jackie, has been working on this for many years.

I don't know if you want to add something around the Swedish model.

[Jackie Anderson]

I think that's the key message on who the victims are. When you look at these young people--when we're trying to work with these young people--it's to help them understand that they are being victimized, and that they're not out there by choice, as you mentioned. They are, unfortunately, being preyed upon and recruited into exploitation. I have known kids as young as six or seven who are now adults here in Winnipeg, so it does get younger. And in particular, as mentioned, our aboriginal kids are the ones being preyed upon.

What we have--it's a known fact--are perpetrators who are out there victimizing and looking to exploit our young people, who are going after the aboriginal children rather than other races or cultures, for fear of the children being undercover for police. That is another force driving them to go after the most vulnerable, who are our aboriginal children.

Our children don't want to be out there. Our children are coming up to us and telling us who the perpetrators are...the drug houses, and homes where they've been brought in, and brothels where they've been sexually abused and assaulted. They are telling us, as caregivers, who these people are. But again, because of the law, without that victim's statement there is nothing that can be done to these individuals, so they continuously come out and prey upon our children.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We're going to go to Monsieur Petit for five minutes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you for being here this morning, even if it is going on a bit long. There are some points I would like to put to you, to make sure I am really understanding properly.

We are doing a study of organized crime—that is what we are trying to do—and one of the points I have noted is that organized crime comes from outside the community, whether it be Métis or aboriginal. That is what you seem to be telling us. I can easily imagine, like you, that it comes from outside the communities.

Earlier, one of my colleagues wondered how we should solve the problem. You are trying to rescue your women, your children, the young people, but there is always this problem coming from outside. It's what we call organized crime. That is really what it is about. You spoke earlier about certain groups that didn't seem to have the same spiritual values as aboriginal people and that seem to be exploiting children and women much more than other groups.

There was the point relating to offenders, particularly what is called the offenders registry. There is currently a sex offender registry. Little by little, the police can use it too.

There is also the problem of sentencing. Naturally, no one is against motherhood: we all want rehabilitation, we have created the office of ombudsman, and all sorts of things, and money is still a little short everywhere.

That being said, what I would like to know from you is how you want organized crime, which exploits your 8- or 9-year-old children, to be dealt with. We need to know exactly how you want us to deal with it. Perhaps you are going to tell us it is no big deal, never mind, because our laws are weak. I would like to know this: how should we deal with organized crime and exactly how can we help you? We can make tough laws. In fact we have them, but we want to make sure we are on the right track. That is what I need.

The aboriginal groups, you are very concentrated, in Winnipeg, for example. So what I need to know is how you want us to respond in the outside community. Earlier, I thought I heard that among yourselves, people want us to be tougher on adult men who sleep with your young girls and boys, who keep brothels. That is what eventually has to be solved, or else we won't solve the other problem, even if we help you. So we have to work together.

So how do you see it? How can you help us? That's why we are doing a study of organized crime. How can we help you? I'm talking not just about what is going on in your community, but also its relationship with organized crime.

Perhaps Ms. Redsky or Ms. Spillett can answer. It's an open question. I would like to know how you want us to respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Perhaps we'll go to Ms. Kastrukoff.

You've been waiting to jump in a few times, haven't you?

[Renee Kastrukoff]

I guess the way I would view this would be to go back to the preventative aspect, to go back to protecting our children. The most vulnerable population are the children, and most often the ones who are the most “most vulnerable”, if that makes any sense, are those who have already been victimized. That situation exists within many of our communities. Sexual abuse is rampant, as Ms. Orvis told us earlier—I'm well aware of that case—and it still exists.

We need to be able to educate parents to educate their children, to let them know that this does go on, and basically educate them on how to protect the children. It's the little children who are abused at a very young age who are most vulnerable to becoming involved in prostitution, to becoming involved in gangs, and to becoming involved in organized crime.

When we talk about prostitution, it's not just the kids who are out on the streets and the johns or the pedophiles who are coming by and giving them money. We're talking about kids who are prostituting themselves so that they can get a sandwich, so that they can have a warm place to sleep, so that they can have whatever needs met that aren't being met. And we're talking about even within their own families.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Ms. Mendes, did you want to continue along that line? There were some others who wanted to jump in.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, yes.

I'll just go back to what Mr. Comartin was mentioning. It has been obvious around the table.

There are six women at the table and no men. How is the educational part of what you are trying to do working with your men? We heard from an elder yesterday in Edmonton, Mr. Louis, who has been doing quite a lot of work with institutions in Alberta. But how are you working with your men to help address this problem? It's not only a mother's problem or a grandmother's problem; it affects the whole community.

[Diane Redsky]

I'd like to build on that and incorporate it into responding to the earlier comment.

At the end of the day, there are community-based agencies and workers, certainly at this table as well, working front lines in communities, who on an every-day basis are working with the most vulnerable in our community.

What makes our kids and our families vulnerable? We need to look at it holistically, in the bigger picture. In the bigger scheme of things, we need to solve poverty in a real way; we need better housing.

As a result of these two things, a number of kids are in care. In the province of Manitoba, there are 7,000 children in care—5,000 in the city of Winnipeg—and 80% are aboriginal kids. Rather than jumping in and protecting, we need to focus on working with systems to look at prevention and intervention strategies and at building communities from the inside out.

To me, working with the community-based agencies is the answer that will solve it all. We have a wealth of knowledge and experience and we know everybody in the community. We know what works and we know the kind of help we need. Having the opportunity to participate in building strategies and identifying resources is going to make a huge difference when it comes to the programs and services within our neighbourhoods that will be addressing the issue and giving us the resources and tools we need to protect our kids and our families.

At this point, we struggle as organizations to do piecemeal whatever we can. We work 18 hours a day to have these partnerships in place. But it's like pouring money into a bucket with a big hole in it, and going on and on. We need to be able to come together with all levels of government and with the community to fill that hole. And once we do that—