Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Over the days we've had this hearing, there's probably been some substantial agreement on this committee. I'm hearing it from Mr. Wiebe, and there's some head-nodding, that the identifiable kingpin, the puppet master, the organized crime mastermind who is using youth, who is looking for the manna, which is the money, who uses the tools, which are the drugs and the guns and the human trafficking, should do time. That person should be removed from society and should get treatment, perhaps. But deterrence and removal are important. We get that.
I hope there's agreement that the pawn, the 14-year-old from a broken home who is led by the allure of gang membership, who's used and does a serious crime but as a youth is not permanently responsible, shouldn't get that, at least without some efforts from the community and the system. Those cases may be easy for us to deal with.
It's the middle ground. It's always the middle ground. What about the youth who does the adult crime and is sort of halfway up the ladder? What about the victims? What about the possibility of rehabilitation? What about the deterrent effect?
We've talked mostly about rehabilitation this morning, and we get it. We understand it. It's on the deterrent effect where I think there might be some difference of opinion on this committee and in Parliament and in the community. People think that if you sentence somebody harshly, and for a long time, that will send a message.
Many judges we've heard from, and police officers even, have said that for youth, deterrence doesn't work. They're different from us. Some of us are younger, of course. But you know, it doesn't work the same way. Deterrence does not work, and that's why it's not specifically in the YCJA, notwithstanding international covenants on how children are a different entity.
What do you have to say to us about that middle ground? We're heading into this possible YCJA reform. You'd hate to put away a youth who did an adult crime who could be rehabilitated, but you'd also hate to return someone who's completely impenetrable and is a danger to society. What should we do about calibrating that? I hate to use the word “recalibrating”.