Evidence of meeting #10 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pierre Mallette  National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers
Marie-Claude Blais  Minister of Justice and Consumer Affairs and Attorney General, Government of New Brunswick
Michael Jackson  Member, Committee on Imprisonment and Release, National Criminal Justice Section, Canadian Bar Association
Howard Sapers  Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Joëlle Roy  President and Representative, Laurentides-Lanaudière, Association québécoise des avocats et avocates de la défense
Wilma Derksen  Victims' Voice Program Founder and Past Coordinator, Mennonite Central Committee Canada
Sam Katz  Mayor, City of Winnipeg

9:30 a.m.

Minister of Justice and Consumer Affairs and Attorney General, Government of New Brunswick

Marie-Claude Blais

Absolutely. I always thought there was an openness to discuss our challenges. I'm here for New Brunswick. I'm here to discuss our challenges as New Brunswickers. They can be very different from other provinces. But surely, the fact that we support this bill won't stop us from bringing forward to the federal government the financial challenges we are having. It's quite the contrary. We intend to be very vocal about some of the challenges, as we have been in many other cases. This is not only about justice.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC

This may not be a happy commonality, but the fact that we face these issues in every province across Canada I think shows the need for some national strategies.

You also made some thoughtful comments about youth in the criminal justice system and ways to intervene in their life path at an early age to try to get them on a different path. Do you see anything in Bill C-10 that prevents the rehabilitation and reinsertion measures you've already adopted and hope to adopt in your province?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

We're out of time, Minister. Maybe we can have that later.

Mr. Jacob.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

My first question is for Mr. Mallette.

Yesterday, you may have read the very interesting article by Manon Cornellier, entitled "The human cost of prison," in which she reports that the clientele consists of increasingly serious cases and is growing. It consists of marginalised individuals, including socially disadvantaged persons such as aboriginals, seniors, and so on. There's also more promiscuity. Prisons have double cells. The number of double-bunking cells has jumped sharply. In addition, less than 2% of Correctional Service Canada's budget is allocated to inmate programs. The article also states that very few inmates are prepared for safe release on a timely basis. So there's not much hope.

What are the actual effects on your correctional officers of these harmful conditions that Bill C-10 will not improve and will even make worse? What are the "safest" conditions for your officers? Officers want inmates to rehabilitate. They want that to happen in a safe environment, for both officers and inmates. What do you recommend to improve the situation?

9:35 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers

Pierre Mallette

That's a good question, sir.

First, I would like to tell you that we at the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers believe in rehabilitation. We believe in programs. We believe that the majority of inmates can be rehabilitated. Every possible effort has to be made.

Double-bunking is definitely one of the problems that the act will raise. We are opposed to double-bunking, and we don't believe it will do anything good for inmates.

On the other hand, to help inmates, we sometimes have to put forward measures to supervise them and help them move forward in their rehabilitation. I'll give you the example of a school class. If you have two or three students in the class who intimidate the other 30, you also have to take care of the two or three students who are doing the intimidation. Similarly, you have to have programs to help inmates move forward and make institutional progress.

Currently, the climate of tension among inmates is one of the aspects that considerably undermines their rehabilitation. You have criminal gangs; you have people who don't want to be rehabilitated. They want to make money on the backs of other inmates by selling them their canteen, by selling them drugs, by offering protection for their family on the outside.

You have to draw a distinction between "engaged" and "unengaged". We believe in inmate programs. We have to have them. We hope the necessary funding will be provided for in the act. It isn't enough to open the door, push the inmate in, close the door and tell him we'll see you in five years. If we do that, we'll fail in our efforts. To avoid failing, we need tools.

Disciplinary systems are one of the tools that we need and that no one has mentioned. Currently, 40% of offence reports that inmates incur for assaulting staff or other inmates or for breaking government equipment are dismissed because the offenders aren't heard. What is an institutional disciplinary court? It's a court where an independent judge examines the offence reports and where there is a lawyer to represent inmate rights, which is fine. In addition, a staff member acts as a hearing advisor. Then a hearing of the report results in a disciplinary regime.

Unfortunately, this system doesn't work, and yet it's the cornerstone of rehabilitation and inmate management.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

If I understand correctly, you are in favour of more rehabilitation programs. You are in favour of making prison more humane, among other things by creating a safer environment. Ultimately, considering that inmates will be returning to society sooner or later, you are in favour of their being better prepared for it. However, Bill C-10 did not provide for those measures.

9:35 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers

Pierre Mallette

As I said in my opening address, Bill C-10 provides for one thing: the proposed paragraph 4(c), which refers to "proportionate and necessary measures". However, to arrive at what you're saying, we also have to take care of inmates who harm other inmates. There is no campaign urging inmates to fight intimidation among inmates or to realize that it isn't right to steal another inmate's canteen. I see no one doing promotion and telling inmates not to tolerate that. We need tools to manage inmates and the things that are part of rehabilitation.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC

My second question is for Marie-Claude Blais.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

I'm sorry. We are out of time, Mr. Jacob.

Could you clarify something for me? When you say “double-bunking”, that's not two people in the same bunk, like in the military where they have to share a bunk...?

9:35 a.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers

Pierre Mallette

“Double-bunking” means two inmates in the same cell.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Thank you.

Mr. Woodworth.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to welcome our witnesses and thank them for being with us today.

Ms. Blais, the Quebec minister said he was concerned about young offenders and that the publication of young offenders' names is a particularly big problem.

You said you were concerned about victims. Consequently, do you believe there are any circumstances in which it would be necessary to publish the name of a young offender?

9:40 a.m.

Minister of Justice and Consumer Affairs and Attorney General, Government of New Brunswick

Marie-Claude Blais

That's always a difficult question when we're talking about young people because, at the same time, we want to give them a chance to return to society once they've served their sentence.

At the same time, having spoken with the prosecution branch of our province, I know they want tools to protect the public. So we view this aspect as a tool such that, if the need is felt and a request is made, prosecutors will have a protocol to follow. They will follow it, but there are serious cases of violence. It's a small number. That request is not made in youth court every day.

However, it is a tool. The prosecution branch told us that what is important for them is to ensure that they have the tools to protect the public.

There must be protection for the public, and it is important. It does not prevent us from continuing to return young offenders to society, to work with them and with the various caseworkers and to put in place the services that will bring about their reintegration.

Everyone wants to promote the reintegration of young offenders, regardless of the positions people adopt. However, there is nevertheless a reality, and we must be able to equip people to deal with that reality.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I believe that's exactly the approach of this bill.

Bill C-10 also enables judges to suspend a mandatory minimum sentence where an offender agrees to take and successfully complete a substance abuse treatment program.

You said you support this approach. Why?

9:40 a.m.

Minister of Justice and Consumer Affairs and Attorney General, Government of New Brunswick

Marie-Claude Blais

We didn't discuss that approach, which is very positive and takes into account certain situations in which the people who appear in court often have a major substance abuse problem.

I must tell you I fully support this measure. I'll give you an example of that. In New Brunswick's youth court, we're lucky in that we have the Portage substance abuse program, which has had a lot of success.

In the past—and I don't believe that will change because this is a reiteration of our position—our judges have been able, based on what the lawyers and social workers told them, to determine that, if there was a substance abuse problem, the young offender in question had to take the program.

Without realizing it at first, we told young offenders that we thought their best chance was to take the Change Your Life program. People don't realize that these programs are often tougher than being incarcerated, for a certain period of time.

It isn't easy for a young offender to leave his family and friends, to be required to do a self-examination, to deal with life and to go into a treatment centre where he will have to stay for eight, nine or 10 months. The entry date is guaranteed, but not the exit date because all the program stages have to be completed.

I have a lot of respect for the youths and adults who go this road because they take charge of their own lives. They're often dealing with a situation even more difficult than in a correctional setting.

There is also this entire issue of the family taking part in the treatment. The families are allowed to express their views, and I believe it works for the benefit of the community to ensure that these individuals can find a road that leads them toward a more productive life.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

That's good—

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Sorry, Mr. Woodworth, but our time is up for this panel. We started a minute or so late and we do have an announcement for the committee.

I'd like to thank the panel for being here today. Time is always short in these situations. We wish we could spend more time with you. It has been most interesting and you've added a great deal to our discussions. Thank you very much.

We'll take a couple of minutes to bring the other panel into play.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

I call the meeting back to order.

Before we begin, there is a matter of important committee business. It's important to ensure that the legislative counsel receives your written instructions for amendments as early as possible during this process. In order to facilitate requirements during the clause-by-clause consideration of the bill, I would ask the members to submit their amendments, if any, to the clerk by Wednesday, November 9, at 4 p.m..

It seems a little tight, but don't forget that Friday is a holiday, and certainly the clerk needs time to go through those amendments.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That's a request, I take it, not a deadline. We may or may not be able to have all of our amendments done by then. There has been no discussion about this.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

I would be surprised if you even had any amendments, Mr. Harris.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Well, you may be surprised, but I don't know why you'd be surprised. That's rather short notice for that work. We will endeavour to provide whatever we can by then. However, I don't want to agree to that as a deadline.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

The clerk says that's fine.

For this second panel, we have Mr. Sapers and Ms. Roy here in the room, and Ms. Derksen and Mayor Katz in video conference from Winnipeg.

As with everyone else, you may have a five-minute opening address. I will give you notice when you have one minute remaining.

We'll start with Mr. Sapers.

Please give us your opening comments, if you would.

9:50 a.m.

Howard Sapers Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

First and foremost, I want to thank you and the clerk of the committee for accommodating our requirements to maintain our independence. It's not usual for us to participate as part of a panel before these committees. I understand that timing necessitated this and that there were some last-minute adjustments to help meet our needs. I do appreciate it.

In my capacity as the Correctional Investigator of Canada, I am always pleased to appear before this committee. In the interests of time, I will focus my remarks only on those elements of Bill C-10 that will impact directly on federal corrections. I will further restrict my remarks to only three concerns at this point.

I'm going to begin with the proposed amendments to the principles of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. Secondly, I will speak to the issue of the capacity of the federal correctional system to safely manage a growing offender population. I will conclude by sharing my concerns regarding the bill’s proposal to further reduce access to pardons.

Let me first very quickly remind members of the committee of the role and mandate of my office. The office was established in 1973 to function as an independent ombudsman for federally sentenced offenders. The office is an oversight body, not an advocacy body. My staff does not take sides when resolving complaints against the Correctional Service.

My office contributes to public safety by ensuring that the rule of law is upheld behind prison walls and that the Correctional Service of Canada is accountable, open, and transparent while fulfilling its very important public safety mandate. Although we are not always in agreement with the Correctional Service, both organizations serve a larger public safety interest by assisting offenders to lead a responsible and law-abiding life upon release.

With respect to my first concern, I am not convinced that section 4 and section 101 of the CCRA need to be amended. The language of “least restrictive measures” that currently underlines the principles of the CCRA is one of the golden rules of corrections.

The least restrictive principle dictates that other less intrusive and restrictive alternatives must be assessed and considered when correctional authorities take a decision that restricts the life and liberty interests of offenders. My staff uses the least restrictive principle on a daily basis to review and investigate some of the most invasive practices in corrections, including involuntary transfer, placement into segregation, security classification, and the use of physical restraints.

It is also a standard by which my office assesses whether the Correctional Service used an appropriate and lawful degree of force when managing a security incident. Some aspects of Bill C-10—for example, expanding the use of mandatory minimum penalties, tightening of parole eligibility, and the elimination of house arrest for certain offences—will invariably lead to more people behind bars serving longer sentences.

As I documented in my latest annual report, which was tabled only two days ago, the Correctional Service of Canada is already challenged to meet accommodation needs. Today, approximately 13% of the male inmate population is double-bunked, meaning that these inmates are housed in cells built for one. According to the Correctional Service, this number will increase to 30% before planned new construction is able to provide relief.

Prison crowding undermines nearly everything that can be positive or useful about a correctional environment. It is linked to increased levels of institutional violence. Prison crowding is a contributing factor to the spread of infectious disease. It reduces already limited access to correctional programming.

Some of the amendments will almost certainly have disproportionate impacts on Canada’s more marginalized populations, including aboriginal peoples, visible minorities, those struggling with addictions and substance abuse problems, and the mentally ill. Indeed, nearly all of the growth in the correctional population over the past decade can be accounted for by these groups.

Correctional authorities are responsible for the care and humane custody of offenders and for actively assisting those offenders in their safe reintegration, while paroling authorities should render impartial decisions on whether offenders can be safely released into the community. These responsibilities are to be discharged recognizing that offenders have retained rights, and sentences are to be administered accordingly.

For this reason, I am unsure of the intent of proposed sections 4 and 101 requiring that sentences be managed with due regard for “the nature and gravity of the offence”. I am certain that Parliament would not want to be seen to be directing the Correctional Service of Canada or the Parole Board of Canada to add additional punishment to the order of the sentencing court.

This brings me to my final point on extending the ineligibility period for a pardon application and the proposal to make some ex-offenders ineligible for a pardon based on the offence or the number of offences committed. It's worth noting that the vast majority of individuals who receive a pardon do not reoffend.

The current system is based on a case-by-case analysis of all relevant risk assessment information. The system appears to work well. It's my view that we need to assist offenders to make a successful transition to a law-abiding life--not create additional obstacles. The government's commendable commitment to enhance access to vocational training in federal corrections would be self-defeating if those newly trained offenders were to face additional barriers in securing legitimate employment.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'd be pleased to respond to any questions.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Thank you very much.

Ms. Roy.

November 3rd, 2011 / 9:55 a.m.

Joëlle Roy President and Representative, Laurentides-Lanaudière, Association québécoise des avocats et avocates de la défense

Good morning, everyone. Thank you very much for the invitation.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Joëlle Roy, president of the Association québécoise des avocats et avocates de la défense, which comprises slightly more than 800 members. Our members are criminal defence lawyers. I have been practising criminal defence law for slightly more than 18 years and therefore appear in court every day. I'm on the ground, I plead, I see things, and I hear things as well.

I know that it's not up to me to ask questions here, but I do have one. And I think it's a fundamental one. Bill C-10 constitutes a major turnaround. It is a combination of a number of bills. Some of those bills were not passed, such as the former Bill C-15, which concerned drug trafficking and possession, and which is coming back into fashion.

Why introduce this bill? We have a judicial system that works. I know that. I practise it and I live it. Why are we introducing minimum sentences? Why are we increasing the minimum sentences that have already been introduced? What is motivating the government to introduce such a draconian bill?

The AQAAD is requesting that Bill C-10 be completely withdrawn because it is irrelevant. It is not supported by statistics or figures. It is utterly pointless. It will have devastating effects on the Canadian public. What I'm hearing this morning is a false debate. The bill is said to be about safety. Look, Canada is an absolutely safe country. If people don't feel safe in Canada, they may have a problem. Of course, the security of communities is indeed a concept that sells well. Our country is very safe.

The victim issue is also a somewhat pernicious argument, but it does sell well.

The minister of justice of New Brunswick talked about sex offenders. They're out there, and they always will be. Do we need such a major reform? We'll never eliminate sexual predation. The point is not to be in favour of or opposed to sexual predation. She says we need tools to assist crown prosecutors. I'm a bit surprised and even stunned to hear that because she forgets that the tool is the Canadian judicial system.

We're there every day. Sentences are rendered. Every situation has to be handled on a case-by-case basis. Moreover, section 718 of the Criminal Code provides for that. What this bill does—and this is what has been going on for a number of years, since this government has been in power—is impose a kind of gag on the Canadian judicial system, nothing more or less. They're gagging the judges, crown counsel and defence attorneys, social workers and probation officers. That's what we're seeing. If someone needs a heavier sentence, if we're dealing with a multiple reoffender, it's the judge's duty to impose that sentence.

In the AQAAD's view, repression pure and simple does not work. Rehabilitation works. Quebec is a province that has always relied on rehabilitation, and it works. Rehabilitation aims for the long term. What kind of society do we want in the long term? We want a just society where we feel safe, but we won't get there through repression. Enacting large numbers of minimum sentences is tantamount to totalitarianism. The case-by-case approach, the offender, is being forgotten. The offender has indeed committed an offence, but will receive a sentence as a result. That's something.

Bringing victims into this debate distorts the debate, even though the intention is good. Taking care of victims is one thing, but that's not the role of the judicial system. The purpose of the judicial system is to impose a sentence on an individual who must face the law and the principles of law. That individual will receive a sentence for the crime he has committed. Victims, of course, may be heard and the impact on the victim will be taken into account, and so on. We can't do more than that. The point is to punish an individual under the law and the rules of law. We must not falsify the debate or lead it into inappropriate areas.

Thank you.