Justice Committee on Nov. 29th, 2011

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's not specifically with respect to missing and murdered aboriginal women, nor indeed with respect to the aboriginal justice strategy, which are already part of the estimates and the budgetary process. We're not requesting today any change. Indeed none of the areas within the Department of Justice are asking for any changes other than the amounts that were requested in the initial budgetary process.

That being said, these continue to have great importance to the government and to my colleagues, who are very much involved with both of these strategies with respect to aboriginal justice and missing and murdered aboriginal women. That funding will continue. It's guaranteed, and again, no changes have been requested, because again, it is not the Department of Justice estimates that are being questioned here today.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

So I'm understanding that you consider what has been budgeted to be enough?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think it's reasonable, and again, the money is being well spent and well allocated. As I indicated to Mr. Cotler, when we put together another budget for the upcoming year, we always analyze these things and make sure the appropriate funds are allocated and expended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Mr. Seeback, five minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Minister, I'm looking at the entry under the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, and I see that the director of public prosecutions is requesting an additional $3 million for transition of ongoing corporate resources. Can you explain to me what transition exactly is being referred to there?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I might ask the director of public prosecutions. This is an ongoing process, as you know. The Public Prosecution Service was, for most of its existence, part of the Department of Justice. Separating that out and having it as its own separate identity involves many administrative challenges and expenses. Doing so is an ongoing process, and one that I think ultimately is in the best interests of Canadians.

I remember when we did this, and it's not a question of, for instance, political interference or departmental interference in prosecutions. It's to make sure that the appearance, among other things, is appropriate, that this is independent, and that there isn't any attempt to interfere with legitimate prosecutions across this country. It's an ongoing process, and I'd ask Mr. Saunders to supplement that if he likes.

[Brian J. Saunders]

When we were established in December of 2006, Budget 2006 set aside $15.6 million on a one-time basis to allow us to achieve the separation the minister just described.

We couldn't have immediately gone out to end the leases across the country; that would have been too expensive. So what we did was take immediate measures to ensure there was a separation of our organization from that of Justice, and as leases have expired we've moved into new premises. Therefore, that $15.6 million hasn't been used in the first year; we've been using it prudently over the years.

The $3 million that you see in the estimates is money we've asked to be reprofiled into the new year so we can pay for a consolidation of our headquarters. At present our headquarters staff are located in four buildings in downtown Ottawa. We share space with the Department of Justice in three other locations. The goal of that money is to be able to show Public Works that we can pay for the reallocation to one central building.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Do you have any idea what the costs might be going forward—additional costs, in that same vein?

[Brian J. Saunders]

As I mentioned, we received $15.6 million at the outset, in 2006, as one-time funding. To date we have spent $6.6 million, leaving a balance of $9 million, and we're seeking $3 million in these supplementary estimates.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Mr. Jean, we have two minutes.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Certainly, if that's all right—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Absolutely.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. Saunders.

I've had an opportunity to look at the supplementals that are being asked for and I find them to be totally in order, but I'm wondering about the efficiency of current programs and some of the programs that have been utilized by governments in the past.

Mr. Minister, has your department reviewed programs and looked at efficiencies and effectiveness of these programs, for instance, elimination of duplication that has been found? Is this an ongoing process, or is it a process that you do on a periodic basis?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, I think there is a responsibility within all departments of Justice to ensure that funds are well spent and that there isn't a duplication of services. Very often there is cooperation and coordination between various agencies and departments of government, and that takes place on a regular basis. The Department of Justice, as you know, provides legal advice to all departments.

Again, I'm very interested in any measures to decrease duplication, to reduce waste, and to be careful with the expenditure of public funds. We owe that to the public and we owe that to all those individuals who have sent us here.

With respect to Public Prosecutions, for instance, again, we have separated that from the Department of Justice over the last...I suppose it's almost six years now that this has taken place. I've been very pleased with the progress. This has not increased duplication. It seems to me that it's very focused on what it is we have a responsibility to do.

We have a responsibility, as you know, with respect to prosecutions under many of the federal statutes. This is becoming a more sophisticated business, so there are challenges they have to meet. I'm satisfied that the program is working well.

Again, it's incumbent upon all of us who have been given responsibilities to make sure that the money is well spent and that there's not waste. That's an ongoing challenge for everyone in government.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Minister, I'd just like to add that the provincial crown in Alberta is very happy with the cooperation from the government.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm pleased to hear that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

I'm sorry, we're out of time, Mr. Jean.

Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Minister, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is asking for almost $1 million in additional funds to bolster the combat against money laundering of the proceeds of crime and the financing of terrorist activities. Will these additional amounts be used to call on the services of outside experts or consultants? If so, what types of services or expertise does the federal government lack?

In his report on the Air India tragedy, Mr. Justice Major made a number of recommendations to crack down more effectively on the financing of terrorist activity, including changing the manner in which financing for terrorism is investigated, which at the moment closely follows the methods used to investigate money laundering. Will these additional amounts be used to implement the recommendations made by Mr. Justice Major?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We are proceeding on a number of different fronts. You would be aware of legislation already brought in by the government. Again, money laundering is an ongoing problem. When I saw a request for increased funds from the Public Prosecution Service specifically directed at this challenge, I was very interested, because as you say, as was identified in the major report, as well as in other information we have received, this is becoming a sophisticated, difficult problem.

One of the things impressed upon you in this job is that these crimes have no borders. It's not 30 years ago, when much of the crime originated, was contained, and effects were felt within the borders of this country. More often, this is an international problem. You remember the bill I had before this committee on auto theft. Auto theft is not just something that takes place and begins and ends. There are sophisticated operations moving these vehicles in and out of the country.

Very often in the legislation we bring forward there is this international aspect. This is why I, among others—as the public safety minister is—am a great supporter of Interpol and other organizations that help coordinate this international activity. Indeed, many of the laws we bring in, whether they are laws with respect to cyber crime or others...many times, it's to coordinate our laws with the laws of countries around the world so that we're all on the same page and that we adhere to certain standards.

As your question points out, it is becoming more sophisticated. So with respect to the estimates here, I'm very interested when the Public Prosecution Service says they need additional funds to meet those challenges. They're playing to a very receptive audience, because this is what I hear when I discuss with my international counterparts that this is becoming more of a problem.

Did you have anything else you wanted to add to that?

[Brian J. Saunders]

I would like to describe our mandate, which is very simple. We do not investigate: we provide legal advice to investigators and we institute legal proceedings. That is what the money we will be receiving will be used for.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

Minister, I would like to know whether prevention programs are included in the supplementary estimates, as requested by Mr. Dale McFee, president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Most of the victims of crime initiatives fall within the purview of the Department of Justice. The Courts Administrative Services doesn't get into that, other than in coordinating and assisting individuals appearing before the courts. The Public Prosecution Service doesn't have direct responsibility with respect to the victims funds. As I indicated, I think to Mr. Harris in his initial question, there are allocations within the Department of Justice with respect to victims. I've been pleased over the years that that has increased. It's becoming more sophisticated and more extensive. Again, these are specifically with respect to the Public Prosecution Service. In and of itself, it is not related to victims of crime and their funding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you, Mr. Jacob.

Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and Mr. Saunders, for attending today regarding these supplementary estimates.

With respect to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, one of the items is a transfer from Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness regarding crimorg.ca. I understand from the estimates that this is a national website for combatting organized crime. As you know, our committee in the past has spent considerable time studying the problem of organized crime and how to respond to it.

I just want to find out a little bit about that transfer. Perhaps I'll begin by asking either the minister or Mr. Saunders to give us a description of that website. What are the objectives? What does it have in it? Who is it accessible to? Then explain to me why this money is being transferred from Public Safety to the director of public prosecutions.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I've mentioned crimorg.ca three times. I appreciate the question, Mr. Woodworth. As far as I'm concerned, better coordinating law enforcement agencies across the country is a priority, but with respect to some of the specifics on the details, I'd ask Mr. Saunders to respond.