Evidence of meeting #19 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was property.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
President, Association of Professional Security Agencies
Absolutely. However, law enforcement prioritizes the calls. I can tell you that minor disturbances—shop thefts, belligerence, drunk and disorderly—are not top-priority calls.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
You mentioned the mall, and this is something that we have many of in my riding. In my pre-budget consultations I was given the scenario of theft within the malls where someone is observed and followed, and law enforcement either took a very long time to get there, understandably, or never arrived at all.
I want a quick comment from you on the necessity for security personnel to have these powers of arrest.
11:50 a.m.
President, Association of Professional Security Agencies
The uniformed security guards you find at gates and things like that hardly ever—ever—make arrests. A lot of them aren't trained in the use of force and are forbidden to make arrests anyway. However, with regard to loss prevention personnel who work in these malls and work in these transit organizations, their purpose is to do just that. They're trained for it and they're looking for it. They're the ones we have to support.
That's where our civil society.... That's the new city centre. That's where people hang out. That's where people do their shopping. That's where they want to feel safe.
February 9th, 2012 / 11:50 a.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Good morning.
My first question is for Mr. Tom Stamatakis, of the Canadian Police Association.
I'd like to know what training your members get. Are there consistent rules? Do your members have mandatory training? Is there ongoing training for your members in terms of the number of hours and topics? Do the terms of arrest favour the security of the individual or the security of property? Is this taught? Are human rights, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and respect for privacy taught to your members?
I'll let you answer. My question was long.
11:50 a.m.
An hon. member
Are you talking to Mr. McLeod?
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
No, my question is for Mr. Stamatakis, of the Canadian Police Association.
11:50 a.m.
President, Canadian Police Association
Thank you. Obviously a question like that would involve a very long and complex answer.
What I can tell you is that all public police officers in this country are trained. The responsibility for training and policing falls to the provinces. All of the provinces have provincial training standards that require an extensive amount of training initially, when police officers are first hired. Then there's a requirement for ongoing training throughout their careers on a regular basis.
To use the Vancouver Police Department as an example, members have six mandatory training days per year where they review issues related to use of force, application of the use of force, powers of arrest, powers of search, and updates with respect to the latest developments in terms of cases that have been decided or the latest developments in law. There are ongoing updates with respect to privacy issues.
So the training is extensive. It's ongoing. It's established by the provinces. There's consistency across the country. The training is delivered with a view to protecting the public who are being victimized by people engaging in criminal activity. It's also delivered with a view to protecting the offenders we come into contact with, and making sure that when we detain them, we detain them in a way that is respectful of their civil liberties and that protects them from injury. We obviously owe them a duty of care.
To address some of the comments that have been made already, the fact is that public police agencies across the country are always looking for ways to be more efficient in terms of the tax dollars we consume and the services we provide. Of course, we do have to prioritize in terms of how we respond. The fact is, though, we do respond to shoplifters. Do I want to see public police officers in the stores surveilling people who might be engaged in those activities? No. That's a legitimate role, I think, for private security personnel to play. But I do think it's appropriate and necessary that when a person is detained in those circumstances, a public police officer comes in to take custody of that person so that we can ensure that the person is not involved in more criminal activity. Perhaps he's wanted on a warrant, or perhaps he's committed more serious crimes somewhere else. It's an opportunity to gather some intelligence and look to see if there's any further investigation that needs to happen. As well, if we're going to keep that person in custody, we need to do that in an appropriate fashion and in an appropriate facility.
I think Mr. McLeod is kind of overstating the views of the public police community, and I think that's something that could be discussed further.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you, Mr. Stamatakis.
My question is for Mr. McLeod.
I'd like to know what the training rules are for your members. Is there mandatory training? Is there ongoing training? How many hours are set aside for it? Does training for your members touch on human rights, the rights of citizens, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, respect for privacy, terms of arrest—and so on?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
President, Association of Professional Security Agencies
There is mandatory training in most provinces—I believe it's in all provinces now. It's a minimum of 40 hours. It contains a range of topics, from report writing to the basis of authority, and it was put together by the registrars in the provinces, in consultation with the police community and with the private sector.
I just want to underline that the role of private security here is strictly as a first responder. At no time do we want to supplant or replace the police. We're simply first responders, like paramedics. And like paramedics over the past 20 years, we're going from being truck drivers to being trained personnel who can aid and abet the medical enterprise by being a first responder and stabilizing the situation.
We're there in the community, and we stay there. We don't move around. The skills that we're trained in are those skills to stabilize situations and then turn them over to the public police at the first available opportunity.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Welcome to the witnesses, and thank you for your submissions.
I have a few questions for Officer Stamatakis. I assume you're an officer; I didn't catch your rank. Are you a police officer, Mr. Stamatakis?
11:55 a.m.
President, Canadian Police Association
Yes, that's correct. I'm a police officer in the city of Vancouver. I'm a constable.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
You would be aware of the fact that our existing law already permits a person in lawful possession of property to arrest someone that he or she finds committing an offence in relation to that property. Are you aware of that law?
Noon
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
You are aware, no doubt, the law requires the person who conducts the arrest to turn over the person arrested forthwith to an officer. Are you familiar with that?
Noon
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I don't know whether you heard Hon. Rob Nicholson's testimony on Tuesday, but Minister Nicholson indicated that he and the government have no intention of removing that requirement for anyone arrested by a private citizen—that the person arrested be turned over to an officer forthwith.
Did you hear his testimony to that effect?
Noon
President, Canadian Police Association
I didn't hear his entire testimony, but I did hear some of the reports of it.
Noon
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
In fact, if anyone were to examine the amendment to section 494—the existing provision allowing citizen's arrest—they would see that it does not remove any provision that requires the person arrested to be turned over to the police immediately.
I assume that is something you would like. You want citizens who make arrests to turn over the persons they arrest to police forthwith?
Noon
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Now, there hasn't been any indication from the government of any other course of action on that to your knowledge, has there?
Noon
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
The new bill, if you have read it, has only four provisions, and only one of them deals with citizen's arrest. Clause 3 of the new bill amends the existing right for someone in lawful possession of property to arrest anyone found committing an offence in relation to that property; it amends it by allowing one to arrest a person who they have previously found committing an offence in relation to their property, but only where it's not feasible for an officer to make that arrest.
Are you familiar with that part of our new bill here?
