Evidence of meeting #19 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was property.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kim Pate  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Ross McLeod  President, Association of Professional Security Agencies
Tom Stamatakis  President, Canadian Police Association
Eric Gottardi  Vice-Chair, National Criminal Justice Section, Canadian Bar Association

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to thank the committee for the opportunity to be part of this discussion about C-26, the citizen's arrest and self-defence act. I actually spent 15 years teaching martial arts and self-defence, in particular, to a variety of youth and adults. Some of my students had to use some of the skills I taught them. Hopefully, most of them didn't have to use it because of their communication skills and whatnot.

Over my career, I found that every time I spoke with either a lawyer, the RCMP, or various law enforcement officers, there was never a clear case where they could tell, in any case, what exactly constitutes self-defence for the reasonable person. I do have some questions with regard to this, and I'm going to be directing them to the constable.

The reforms proposed in this bill would include a list of factors the court could consider in determining whether the person's actions were reasonable. Again, examples, Mr. Chair, would be pre-existing relationships between the parties, including the history of any violence, and the proportionality between the harm threatened and the response in turn.

Now, specific to the constable, that defence would be available for a person who commits any type of act for a defensive purpose. Again, as a former martial arts instructor, you would always try to encourage another way than outright confrontation, such as if they could retreat or get away. This may put them in a situation where they may have to commit what would typically be a crime—like stealing a car to flee an attacker or trespassing on property—as long as it's reasonable under the circumstances.

My question for the constable is that the current law is limited to justifying the act of force only. What do you think, sir, of these reforms and their ability to provide that protection when they are reasonably used?

12:30 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Association

Tom Stamatakis

As I said in my opening comments, we generally support the changes in C-26. Like you said, as long as those defensive actions are reasonable under the circumstances, and are used or relied upon specifically to stop a threat, then we support that. I think the concern, though, if there is one, is to make sure people don't decide to go beyond that in terms of defending themselves or taking any other action.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

I'm glad to hear you say that, sir, because I agree with your earlier points. Obviously, policing is a public benefit, but I do understand, from Mr. McLeod's viewpoint, that it's also, though, a benefit that is not 100% available to all people at all times. So to have these kinds of provisions whereby someone, if they're in a rural area, rather than confronting an attacker straight out, can steal a car so they can get to safety or can trespass across property in order to protect themselves.... I'm glad to hear you say that.

Is there anything else in particular that you would like to bring up in regard to some of these reforms?

February 9th, 2012 / 12:30 p.m.

President, Canadian Police Association

Tom Stamatakis

Yes. Technology was mentioned. I referred to it briefly in my opening comments. I think it's important to consider some of the changes that have occurred and to what extent we can now rely on technology, whereas maybe we couldn't in the seventies or eighties.

The fact is that there are very inexpensive technologies available today. Whether it's premises or properties, they can be easily monitored by video equipment that provides clear images. The proliferation of cellphones that have photo and video capabilities now...those are tools that law enforcement relies on extensively today.

I will just point to the example here in Vancouver of the riot in June of last year, where we successfully identified and have now prosecuted or have recommended charges for the crown to prosecute in hundreds of cases. These were people who were engaged in criminal activity or rioting behaviour and we had no information other than a clip of a video or a photo.

So taking that back to this whole discussion around private security and these quasi-public/private places—shopping malls—I think there's a real opportunity here to really mitigate any risk, whether it's to the public, private security personnel, or even offenders, if we think about relying on technology a little bit more extensively. With the right kind of information, we have the capability now in law enforcement to identify people and successfully investigate people who are involved in even the most minor property crime offences, right up to the most serious offences involving personal harm against other people.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

I'm sorry, but we're actually over time.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the time.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

We've completed the rounds. We need to keep a little bit of time because we do have a small amount of committee business.

Given the circumstances, I'd to thank the witnesses, Mr. McLeod and Ms. Pate, and also Mr. Gottardi, who we couldn't see but did hear, and we do appreciate that.

Mr. Stamatakis, we could both see you and hear you. We appreciate that.

Thank you very much.

We'll suspend for just a few minutes to give the witnesses time to get away.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

I call the meeting back to order.

One of the things we need to do is pass a budget for this study. This does not have to go to the Liaison Committee because the amount is under $40,000. The clerk has distributed all of the numbers, which are the kind of standard numbers that get plugged in. We will not necessarily spend the $28,100. In all likelihood, it will be considerably less, but we do need to pass it.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

I'd like to move the adoption.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Madam Borg, did you say you were seconding it?

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Charmaine Borg NDP Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

I guess so.

12:40 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Thank you.

Is everybody in favour?

(Motion agreed to)

Okay.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Are you presenting it at 1:30 or next week?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

It doesn't have to go through the Liaison Committee.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Okay.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

The other thing is that we're sort of running into a bit of a problem with witnesses on this bill—witnesses supplied by both sides—who are not available or who do not wish to attend. I think the clerk has been trying to fill up our schedule.

Next Tuesday we're okay, and I understand there may have been some discussions about Thursday.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

In previous discussion with Mr. Harris, there was a suggestion that we might be able to put Mr. Comartin's bill in there. That only takes about an hour, and he said he only needed 24 hours' notice. There's also the completion of two witnesses on organized crime, which also will not take a lot of time.

Probably both could be done in one shot on Thursday, so my suggestion is that we do that. Obviously we want to get through Bill C-26, and that's why I was reluctant to do those right off the bat, but there's a gap there, and there's no harm to anyone, so....

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

That was Jack Harris's point at the last meeting.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Exactly.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

So that's excellent.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

If it's agreed, then, the clerk will take care of that for Tuesday and Thursday of next week.

12:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Then we'll have two more meetings on Bill C-26?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Yes. I mean, what I'm worrying about is do we have all our witnesses? We're not going to add twenty more; this is not going to go on indefinitely. I assume we've pretty much determined who we need.