Evidence of meeting #28 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was memorials.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Eggenberger  Vice-President, Research, Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association
Terence Whitty  Executive Director, Army Cadet League of Canada
Earl Page  As an Individual

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I will only say—

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Charmaine Borg NDP Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

As an MP, I do my homework, Mr. Tilson. My question concerns the amendment.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Okay, I misunderstood you.

I can only say that I'm not dealing with other incidents of mischief. I'm dealing with cenotaphs, war memorials. I'm not dealing with anything else. This question has been asked by Mr. Cotler, and it may also have been asked by someone else. The bill does not deal with that. Those churches, synagogues, temples may be in a different category. That may be. I don't know. My concern is cenotaphs, war memorials, anything to do with men and women who have returned from wars, or who have died in wars on behalf of this great country.

The bill does not deal with churches, synagogues, and temples. It doesn't deal with those things. That would be up to someone else, perhaps the government, perhaps another private member's bill. That's all this bill deals with. I'm not going into any other aspects of mischief.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Charmaine Borg NDP Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

I understand that. I think it is very important to honour those who have defended us abroad and who have given their lives for us. My point is that we do not impose a minimum sentence on someone who commits mischief based on hate in relation to a temple or some other such place, but that we should impose such a sentence on someone who urinates on a cenotaph.

You mentioned an amendment, and I would like to know whether it will mean that these other cases would be covered.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Mr. Chairman, Bill C-217deals strictly.... I'm starting to repeat myself.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Charmaine Borg NDP Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

That is fine.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Excuse me?

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Charmaine Borg NDP Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

I don't think you understood my question.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Could be.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Charmaine Borg NDP Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

You mentioned an amendment. Could you give us more detail on that amendment…or if Mr. Goguen can, that's fine.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Mr. Chairman, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Am I supposed to read the bill?

I'm sorry. I apologize.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Just a minute, Mr. Tilson. My understanding is the amendment has been distributed. You should have it.

Go ahead.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

There's nothing different. I don't think I have anything to add, Mr. Chairman.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dave MacKenzie

Thank you.

Done?

Mr. Jean, go ahead.

March 27th, 2012 / 12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for attending today.

I appreciate having a person from northern Alberta here. I understand you're now part of John Baird's world, Mr. Eggenberger. You are originally from northern Alberta, where I'm from.

12:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Research, Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association

John Eggenberger

Hear, hear!

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Notice the cheers in the room. That's great.

I want to tell you that my father served in the Second World War. He died in 2004, but he was a member of the armed forces, and so is my son. I went to France for the 95th anniversary and served our country by attending many of the ceremonies there. I can't believe how the people in the rural areas in northern France respect Canadians—and the tears, 95 years after the first World War, and all the graves. Unbelievable.

Mr. Tilson, congratulations on this bill. I think it's a great bill. In my mind, a thousand-dollar fine is not enough. As well, only 7% of crimes are actually solved, which means that somebody who receives 30 days in jail, even for their second offence, will spend only five or six, maybe seven, weekends in jail. So I don't think it's enough. But we are where we are.

Could you explain, Mr. Tilson, why you think it's necessary to separate types of property? In this particular case, why do you think war memorials justify receiving, in essence, a different treatment than other property, personal property and public property?

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

I'd rather answer that in another way. What I don't understand is why the desecration of war memorials or anything to do with this sort of thing is put in the category as simple mischief charges. That's what I said in my introductory comments. I believe it's most inappropriate that when someone desecrates a war memorial or a cenotaph, it's put in that category. So that was the purpose: to make it clear that this is a most serious matter and should be treated as such.

I can only repeat.... I don't want to inflame the members of the opposition because I know they don't like mandatory minimums. The penalties I've put forward in this bill are mandatory minimum penalties. Other witnesses have said that they may be even too weak. This is the weakest they're going to be. A judge has the right to increase those penalties.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Indeed, these people who cause these issues, they have to have intention, mens rea. They have to actually know what they're doing in order to be found guilty of the offence. So they actually have to understand that they are desecrating a war memorial. Is that correct?

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

That's correct.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Mr. Tilson, have you considered mandatory community service being a part of the punishment for this particular case? From my perspective, a thousand-dollar fine is exactly that, and not sufficient, nor do I think the 30 days is sufficient. What about some time in the community, where they could spend 100 hours of community service working for the Legion or other places like that?

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

As I've indicated, Mr. Jean, this is the minimum penalty. It doesn't stop a judge or a court from saying “In addition to those penalties, you're going to have some community service; you're going to have to work with the Legion members.”

Mr. Page made the comment...and the difficulty with that is the judge is going to have to know something about that particular Legion, because some of these Legion members—I'm trying to say this in a delicate manner—because of age or otherwise, may not be capable of supervising that community service. But it does give the judge the discretion. The judge can go anything above that, and that would include community service.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I'm a member of my Legion in Fort McMurray, and I have to tell you the numbers are dwindling quickly.

Can I ask the other witnesses if they would consider it to be a positive step to have these individuals who would desecrate a war memorial, monument, or such thing spend some significant time in the community working for groups on a voluntary basis? I know it has been very effective in courts in Fort McMurray in the past, in tribal sentencing circles and things like that.

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Earl Page

Again, it goes back to “let's get started”. Yes, we'd do our best to see that the community service was done, if that's what the judge would wish to do.

Some of the past remarks have been that we're trying to mix apples and oranges here. Synagogues, churches, mosques, or whatever being desecrated has nothing to do with war memorials. That's strictly a veterans affair. The rest of this has nothing to do, as far as I'm concerned, with the desecration of our monuments.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I would agree.

Thank you very much for your testimony today, and thanks for attending.

And thanks for this initiative, Mr. Tilson.