Thank you for your comments.
Let me make an important point. When this was proposed last week, there was a desire for an opportunity to consider it and consult with the individual who moved the motion.
This is a private member's bill, and while we obviously have great respect for our colleagues who present legislation, this committee has a role, and the House will have a role, to ensure that private members' legislation that comes before the committee is considered in the light of other aspects of the Criminal Code and criminal sanctions generally.
I would reiterate some of the arguments that were made, in particular by the witnesses who presented, by Professor Kaiser from Dalhousie, and significantly in the letter from the president of the Dominion Command of the Royal Canadian Legion, Patricia Varga. She recognized that this offence is often committed by people who essentially are in ignorance of the consequences in terms of how it insults the memory of and the sensibilities of all citizens, in particular of those who have lost loved ones who gave their lives in pursuit of the values that we hold dear, and she believes that there ought to be a variety of responses to that.
We heard about situations, and in fact the situation that probably gave rise to this occurred at the National War Memorial six years ago, which was insulted by someone urinating on the grounds. This person then met with Canadian Legion members here locally, who informed them of the significance of what they had done. They were remorseful; they became volunteers and worked with the Canadian Legion. It was considered a valuable restorative justice response and also an education, not only for them but also to all Canadians, about the seriousness of this.
We have before us a piece of legislation that proposes to treat more severely, as I put it the other day, someone who in their ignorance might spray “bravo” on a war memorial than someone who puts a swastika on a synagogue.
I put it that way because this would be the effect of this legislation, frankly. If we have that on our books, then we are not doing a proper job in making sure that our law responds to what the values of our society are.
The men and women who fought in the Second World War fought against that very thing, and now we're saying that a monument to them is more important than what they fought for itself. We've gone on record as saying that we support acknowledging the desecration of a war memorial as a serious matter, and we're satisfied to put in section 430 of the Criminal Code as a separate offence, with the possibility of it being treated as seriously as it needs to be treated, depending on the circumstances.
The first amendment we made was to take out the first sections, which would provide for the three levels of mandatory minimums but have a serious maximum penalty. That is the way that our Criminal Code deals with the seriousness of offences, such as in section 430 itself, where it says that mischief, meaning damage to property, that causes actual danger to life has no mandatory minimum but has a maximum of life imprisonment.
That's how the Criminal Code treats the seriousness of offences in section 430. If we're going to amend section 430 of the Criminal Code to acknowledge this, which we support, as a committee we must recommend that it be done in concert with the existing provisions of the code so that it makes sense and does not send the wrong message to Canadians.
It's one thing to do this because we think it should be done, but if we think that having this in the Criminal Code is going to have the effect that the mover of this motion wants, then I think, if we listen to what professor Kaiser says, that's not going to be achieved.
The factors that weigh on someone who might be deterred by the sentence are not present in those who commit this kind of a crime. There is the lack of education, the ignorance, the lack of knowledge of what's going on, drunkenness, youth.... I don't mean young persons under the Youth Criminal Justice Act; to me, it's a 19-, 20-, or 21-year-old who hasn't yet reached the state of societal maturity that we would hope that they would.
These are often the people who get involved in things like this by reasons of carrying on or drunkenness or whatever it happens to be. If it's a serious offence—if someone is taking apart a war memorial to steal brass or copper or scrap—then that's obviously a premeditated offence that ought to be treated with the full seriousness of the law, and we would support raising the bar so that it could happen.
However, what we're attempting to do here is to have our law conform to the reality of the kind of situation that happens here and to provide the kinds of alternatives that Patricia Varga, the president of the Royal Canadian Legion Dominion Command, suggested in her letter to this committee.
We will stand with the Royal Canadian Legion on this. We will seek to have a penalty that reflects the seriousness of the crime but that also recognizes that there's a significant role in ensuring that accused persons in these circumstances are treated in a way that meets the needs of our society and that the people who engage in this are not necessarily hardened criminals who deserve to go through a criminal charge with a mandatory minimum and a lengthy, expensive, and uncertain process to receive what used to be called a pardon but now is not.
Thank you.