Exactly, but the point is that it can't be dodged. That's one of the issues.
The other issue is investigation. Although one member, Mr. Rai, I believe, from the Vancouver police didn't say that was his concern, Mr. Richards and the chief constable did indicate that if people aren't wearing masks, it's going to be easier to identify them, that it's an investigative tool, and the deterrent issue of making sure people don't come with masks actually helps in police enforcement down the road.
I just don't think this has been written with any care towards this kind of tool kit. It's left far too up to the police to use this in these ways that have nothing to do with the idea of creating a new criminal offence.
Shifting the onus with lawful excuse—we just can't ignore it. I mean, we have to at least recognize that as a private member's bill, this has not been charter-tested by the Department of Justice. It's one of the dangers of private members' bills. The whole question of whether there is any kind of a reverse onus problem here, because the lawful excuse has to come from the defendant, we have to at least consider.
We also have to recognize that really it's not language that comes with ready-made interpretation. I gave a series of examples to the chief constable...or I can't remember which witness, I'm sorry. I gave examples with regard to whether or not this would constitute a lawful excuse, and of course they had a hard time saying for sure whether my examples would or would not constitute.
The point is that the ambiguity doesn't help. You have a reverse onus and ambiguity? It doesn't look good, I'm afraid, from a constitutional rights perspective.
I would end by only drawing attention to one big problem. This is a way of addressing something that would come up as a second amendment. The biggest concern here is unlawful assemblies, ultimately. If some of the interpretations we're hearing are applied to the threshold of unlawful assemblies, boy oh boy, the chilling effect is really serious, because the threshold for unlawful assemblies is very low.
Not only do the numbers have to be low, but the trigger of fear of people in the neighbourhood that something will occur that will become tumultuous is so low that you almost get to the point of wondering, well, if there's a certain kind of demonstration where people are wearing masks, the masks alone may create the fear among some people when you have an unlawful assembly. It is so low a threshold that if you don't have the safeguards I've been talking about, then....
It's in that area where we could have serious over-policing. The over-policing was brought up by Professor Stribopoulos. One understands it...but police will overcharge. Even if they know, as Mr. Webb said today, that it won't get through the courts, that doesn't prevent police from charging. The fact that you have a plausible charge allows for detention. It allows for arrest. That accomplishes the goal. Even if you know you have no serious ability to actually prosecute, you may say it's still worth your while to arrest or detain.
In sum, the intention is laudable, but I do believe it's largely unnecessary.
At the same time, with this amendment we're trying to work with the committee and with the sponsor of the bill. I would encourage the members opposite to take the amendment seriously.