Evidence of meeting #47 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
You would like examples. I can talk about the psychological counselling that is often necessary when a traumatic event occurs. Some people need just one or two sessions, simply to help them get back on their feet. Others, however, need more than that.
Some expenses are a bit more particular such as the cost of cleaning up the crime scene when necessary. We would like to be able to help victims cover that cost.
The funeral expenses are another consideration, as mentioned earlier. They can be as high as $12,000, and the government contributes up to $3,000 only.
I would say those three items paint a fairly accurate picture of victims' needs.
Clearly, more items will also come into play, but if we're trying to be open and receptive, that is the way to approach things.
4:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
I would say that funeral expenses pose the biggest problem in Quebec. What happened to me and to a number of families I have met is that we did not get any money, because the crime involved a minor child who had never made any contributions.
So people in that situation don't get anything else, even after receiving the $3,300. My daughter's funeral cost me $16,000. That was what it cost to make sure she was laid to rest with some dignity. I cannot wrap my head around the fact that a parent should get just $3,300 or nothing at all to bury their child. It's unacceptable. That's not enough for a parent to bury their child with dignity. Some parents are forced to hold a small funeral or to cremate the body, meaning no more than a half-day service.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for being here this afternoon.
I want to start by telling you that the NDP supports victims of crime and their families. We support the recommendations made by the ombudsman for victims. I want to convey my deepest sympathies for all the physical and emotional suffering you have been through. I understand that you will feel powerless, regardless of what you are given.
Money for crime scene cleanup, psychological counselling and funeral services will certainly help you. But, honestly, what I think will truly benefit you is an enhanced victims fund and better programs. What's more, I realize that the trial lasts longer than a month or two; it can go on from one to four years, and decisions are sometimes appealed.
So taking care of victims is important. As you so articulately explained, victims can remain victims for years, if not their entire lives. Nothing can ever make up for the person they have lost, unfortunately. But they need assistance. And I am not convinced that Bill C-37 really delivers the solutions you need. I fully agree that you need assistance, be it emotionally, physically or otherwise, to be able to move forward.
If more money were invested in the victims fund in order to deliver better programs to victims of crime, would that help you through your trying ordeal?
4:25 p.m.
Vice-President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
“Help” is a big word. You can't put a price tag on help when you're talking about a crime or a child. It's not about the dollar figure. I can say I need $200,000, but when you become a victim, as I have, you are a victim for life. I was lucky that a trial took place. Because of all the media attention on the case, it happened very quickly. Some victims have to wait three, four or five years. At a certain point, they no longer receive any assistance. So they end up in trouble and it's no longer possible to help them recover, all because there is no more funding, no more resources.
Psychological support and counselling are necessary. Sometimes therapy is needed. It is extremely important to talk. When I meet with victims, I know of what I speak. I can guide them. We deliver a message of hope: it is possible to get past the ordeal. I did it, but it takes a lot of tools and a long-term approach.
Ours is a volunteer association. There are always expenses. When the money eventually runs out, we will no longer be able to operate. It would be a shame if we had to turn our backs on victims we had been working with for a year or two and tell them we could no longer help them because we were out of money. That is my biggest fear right now. We don't need millions of dollars, just a regular operating budget to keep doing what we're doing.
4:25 p.m.
President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
Further to your concern, I would say that, in many cases, because of the tremendous costs, families are forced to take out bank loans or mortgages. You talked about the trauma and asked whether this would make things a bit easier. Just having to make those payments every month prolongs the traumatic experience. It is akin to rubbing salt in the wound for years until you've paid it all back.
Regardless, if we're talking about psychological support, therapy and so forth, that would be a lot right there. Clearly, if we can help the wound heal instead of covering it up with a band-aid, it will help the victim get through their ordeal.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
October 25th, 2012 / 4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for sharing their stories. I hope it doesn't force you to relive the ordeal. You've had to face incredible tragedy, and you have the sympathy of the entire committee.
The purpose of this bill, in my eyes, is to hold the convicted criminal accountable not only to the victim but also to society. Everyone knows that the bill calls for the money to go into a compensation fund to cover certain victims services. It does not go directly to victims. I gather from your comments that it is not the actual dollar figure that matters, but rather the accountability imposed on the criminal. Would you agree?
4:25 p.m.
President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
I would add that the recidivism rate is 80%. So I think this is a good measure that could help make the criminal aware of the damage they have caused.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Oftentimes, money is wasted. At the end of the day, no money is going directly to the victims. In some cases, the money comes out of another consolidated fund and not the victims fund, as normally intended. That is why we made it mandatory to impose this fine.
Poverty is an issue that often comes up. Mr. Côté mentioned it. Convicted criminals cannot afford to pay the fine, so in some provinces, they engage in community service. That service benefits the community; it contributes to community objectives.
Would you say that is as worthwhile as a fine payment going into a compensation fund?
4:25 p.m.
As an Individual
I think working to pay a fine is a thousand times better than what goes on right now, where the judge decides to let it go and doesn't impose the fine.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Now it is mandatory. Do you agree with that?
4:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, it's a great improvement. Even if a criminal doesn't have the money but is forced to pay the fine, that alone is a tremendous improvement over the current system.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Does that give the victim the same level of satisfaction?
4:30 p.m.
Vice-President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
As I said earlier, only 2.7% of surcharges are actually collected. We hear that the criminals are poor, but so are the victims. If you have a victim who is poor, with nothing in the bank and no assistance, how will they bury their child? The problem is still there. There is no magic bullet. As I said, there is no particular amount.
The criminal has to be held accountable for their actions, regardless of how. The criminal can repay the debt by working. That is one way to hold them accountable. They can't be sent to prison simply to watch TV and hang out.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
That is more worthwhile than a financial contribution.
4:30 p.m.
Vice-President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
In my view, it could represent another form of restitution if the criminal really cannot afford to pay the fine. There is always a way to make them work and to find the money elsewhere.
4:30 p.m.
President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
I would add that judges have the discretion to impose a surcharge or simply a fine, but they don't use it often. As I told you, the proportion that is actually collected is 2.7%. Judges aren't using their discretion enough. That is the problem.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Françoise Boivin
Thank you all three for being here.
Where I'm from, we saw what happened to Valérie Leblanc. I can tell you we feel it on a daily basis. Sometimes, it is not just the family affected. The weight of the crime falls on the entire community. We sympathize with you. Nothing could ever compensate you adequately for what you have been through. Thank you for taking the time to meet with the committee.
We will now take a short break, to bring in our other group of witnesses.
